Hey,
Some of you expressed interest in such a resource, so I went ahead and made it.

The Features Trading Union

It's nothing special, and it's most definitely in its infancy. As you may notice, the Bootleg List only has one bootleg, as to that's the only one I have and the only one I can surely comment on/rate Quality/etc. I'll add more as soon as possible!

Anyway, please consider "joining" the Union. (No gimmicks) If it catches on, it'll undoubtedly become a very valuable resource in the expansion of your bootleg collection, and even perhaps a vehicle with which we can circulate new ones. Please, it doesn't take much effort from you, and it could really become very beneficial to us all. You can either sign up on the site or here by e-mailing me (jakobdorof@comcast.net) the following:

1. Your alias
2. E-mail address you want displayed
3. What bootlegs you have
4. What bootlegs you want
5. Whether or not you are willing to do 2:1 and/or B&P (blanks and postage) trades

Other point of interest: I don't really like hosting this on my record label webspace...it's kind of unprofessional. If any of you have some webspace that you'd be willing to use to host the Traders Union, please tell me here or via e-mail. (jakobdorof@comcast.net) Thanks!

Lastly, on the subject of bootlegs, I really want to trade to get more! Please PM me or e-mail me if you're willing to trade.

awesome implementation.

I think this is a great idea, and I intend to participate any way I can. I'd like to know how some of the regular Features 'leggers feel about it though. I generally only want shows that I've been to, but didn't tape, or rare/particularly good shows like the 12th and Porter back to back thing that I missed out on. I think it could get out of hand with people sending CD spindles through the mail saying "gimme all you got."

well, wouldn't you have to give in order to get?

Yeah I was about to say something about that. There should be some sort of rule which excludes (or limits) the "B&P" form of trading.

Additionally, I don't post your address on the site, just your e-mail. So if someone wants to do a B&P, the two traders can negotiate that to their pleasing, and then the addresses are exchanged.

Could you explain your reasoning behind this? Like I said in my post above, you and the other trader determine the amount of blanks to be sent.

Nevermind, then.

Hmm...as a member of the Messageboard Union, I don't think that I can allow myself to take part in this.

Assuming "Messageboard Union" is just some term you came up with on the fly, and not something real (correct me if I'm wrong), do you really think being a member of the board and partaking in this would conflict? If it's a problem, I'll take it down and that'll be the end of that.

And if BrianW or anybody with such authority could give me the thumbs up or thumbs down on this, that would be most appreciated.

Really, no harm meant...if it's problematic/not to the band's liking, it's gone. I just thought it would be something you guys would enjoy.

(Edited by Jakob Dorof at 5:54 pm on Jan. 29, 2004)

The band is OK with recording and trading. Matt told me when I first recorded a show 5 years ago. They didn't take down the mp3 site when it was up.

I used to have a bootleg trading site right before they launched this site. I traded twice. Sina still owes me a video.

(Edited by YaDaDaDa at 7:57 pm on Jan. 29, 2004)

exactly. i know all of my bootlegs come from the talented and generous richard d. i imagine that it is somewhat of a hassle to record at a show and do all the editing and whatnot. i'm not saying that rd is some stingy hoarder of shows (which is evidient by all the people he kindly chooses to share with), just that he (and all other bootleggers) has every right to be. personally, i just feel wrong trading off something that someone else took the time and effort to create, without their permission, and without them getting any recognition for it.

but i feel completely different about bootleg-trading for better known bands (think strokes). then that shit's all cool. i guess it's because so many people have them on a much bigger scale.

Here's my two cents...

When I give someone a bootleg CD, it is a personal thing. In my experiences, I have become friends with some people that I may have never become tight with, had I not shared that one cd with them. I feel that it creates a bond between two people, and to have these bootlegs traded facelessly, not knowing the creator at all, is the primary aspect that I do not like about this idea. Thus, I will continue to use my cds on a person to person basis. Take note that I have never once turned any of you down, when asked if I could supply a specific CD. Some of you have gotten extra-hooked up. And the friendships and killer rarities that I have received in return more than make up for anything that I could ever give. All it takes is a simple request. Though I will not be participating, I have no qualms with this new site. Down the road, I am just afraid that some people won't give a shit about giving away everything in their newfound collection since the trade that gave it to them had no meaning.

You have created a very nice, organized site JD. Good work

(Edited by richarddawson at 5:15 am on Jan. 30, 2004)

RD's right. Bootlegs are for buying friends. That's why I pretend to be his friend.

I'm glad someone acted on this. Thanks.

Bingo!

What a great idea that was.

Since a lot of these shows are relatively recent, it's pretty easy to track where they came from, i.e. who went through the time and trouble to record them. I think that information should be noted just like the date and location of the show. I have plenty of material I recorded myself, so I feel comfortable trading it while I keep the stuff I got from other people to myself. If you want something else, I'd direct you to the source because I believe that firsthand material is always best. Of course, this is just how I would conduct my business on the site. I see the site as a way for traders to know and be known, and then establish those personal connections through that. It will be abused when people start to treat it like a buffet.

and that's the reason I am hesitant.

That's an excellent idea, and something I will certainly start to do.

And for the last time: they'll only treat it like a buffet if you let them. They contact you, and no one's forcing you to give out your address. If you don't feel like doing a B&P/2:1 at that particular time, it's fine, decline it --- if someone continues to pester you, let me know and I'll add them to a "Bad Traders List" and essentially "ban" them from the Union. Additionally, even if you're a member, you are in no way obliged to do B&Ps/2:1s, period. I made that optional for a reason. (I'll gladly do both myself, but that's why I give you, the "members," ((only per your signing up, of course)) the option to say that you don't want to do either, or just one of the two). This is a service meant to benefit you[ (and that "you" applies to everyone), and we have it set up so that it does that exactly to your liking and to your specifications. As if it weren't obvious, I didn't come up with the B&P/2:1 concepts myself: I think they came along with the advent of CD-R trading. However, I've seen far bigger unions (i.e., LiveNirvana.com's) with thousands of members, and there is no such widespread abuse that you foreshadow. And trust me, Nirvana fans can be greedy pricks like the fans of any mainstream band; we're talking about The Features here. I'd estimate there's a maximum of about 300 really dedicated Features fans in the world at this point, which we all pray will change within the year, of course, but that's not the point. The point is, even if The Features were to suddenly become the next Nirvana, the system will still work.

On top of that, LiveNirvana.com's Union consistently and frequently surfaces new bootlegs that were recorded and hoarded some decade ago, and I think that with time, The Features Trading Union could very possibly be responsible for surfacing new bootlegs, and that's something to look forward to.

Thanks for reading,
-Jakob Dorof

(Edited by Jakob Dorof at 2:11 pm on Jan. 31, 2004)

I didn't mean to provoke you to write all that. I automatically look for potential flaws in things, and I shouldn't do that. For the record, I think this is an excellent idea, and I intend to participate as soon as I get all my shit in a pile. I think this'll be a great asset to the Features fanbase, and it can only add to their popularity.

No, I thank you for giving me the opportunity to make a point I probably wouldn't have otherwise. And if my reply sounded negative or defensive, that was unintentional...just trying to make the Union as successful as possible.

EDIT: I also just realized that my last "paragraph" was a long run-on sentence. Whoops...

(Edited by Jakob Dorof at 2:22 pm on Jan. 31, 2004)

In the biggest "trade union" of them all - the Phish community's - crediting the taper is standard practice. In fact, in order to really be "tradable," a recording must have what's called "source info."

It typically might look like this:

Source info: Microtech Gefell M210 > Oade M248 preamp > SBM1 > DAT@48k > digi > CDR
Taper: Chuck Lesiak

(Edited by jamiecarroll at 4:34 pm on Jan. 31, 2004)

I think that my hesitation is moreso based around people trading bootlegs that I have given them. That's my problem with it. I'm afraid that those people wouldn't mind giving away EVERYTHING that they have to ANY person that asked. One or two is no big deal, it's the possibility of consistent huge-ass trades. Yes, that's pretentious of me, but that's my opinion.

(Edited by richarddawson at 5:31 pm on Jan. 31, 2004)

Fuck, I just finished a rather lengthy reply, and as I was reviewing it, Explorer crashed. God damn...

Let me summarize. Basically, this creates a bit of a problem, since the Union has already backpedaled. It's given you a chance to voice your opinion on the trading of your "creations," of sorts, and now the folks who were previously trading your stuff have undoubtedly thought twice about doing it again out of respect for you. (And I don't disagree with this, by the way) Additionally, I don't want to oppose you myself; you are now essentially the sole proprietor of many bootlegs, and I'd like to have some of them eventually, so I don't want to get on bad terms with you. So like I said, the Trading Union's purpose was to make Features bootlegs more accessible, not harder to obtain, and it's already backfired in doing that. Perhaps I should just delete the site now, or maybe we should run an RD-free trading site that doesn't trade your bootlegs. If that is to your liking, feel free to PM me a list of the bootlegs you've made and I'll be sure not to add/trade them on the site.

I guess we'll see how this pans out. My phrasing on my first attempt to post this was much better, but I really don't have the time to rewrite this until it matches up, so I'm just posting it as is. Sorry about the sloppy penmanship, and if anything sounds adverse, that's totally unintentional --- as I said earlier, my first post was much better (and its tone/attitude was perhaps a little more clear) but I don't have much time tonight. Speaking of which, I've got to go. Good night,

-Jakob

Since my bootlegs came from the most generous RD, I'll respect his opinion and not join the union. Besides, I've had too many stalkers to start giving strangers my address.

But RD, if it's alright, I'll let a friend who lives in AZ make copies for himself. I've already made him a DND fan, and I'm working on the Features, but he lives too far away to go to any of their shows and thus experience anything beyond the EP (at least for now). He and I already have a special relationship - I have photos of him in a cocktail dress (our "special relationship" is that I can blackmail him forever! ). But it's up to you, because you are the creator of the bootlegs.

I think the only way to really solve this "problem" would be to only share what you made yourself, or to be sure that whoever gave it to you doesn't mind you sharing it. Since a lot of people know that RD tapes pretty much every show he goes to, they can go to him directly and he can say yes or no. The fact that he's not taking part in the site just says that he doesn't want to be part of some kind of "market," and I think that's perfectly fair. In the site's defense, though, I don't think there will be an overabundance of mass trading. For me, it's usually one for one or two for two, or something like that. I know that RD has a ton of shows, but I wouldn't ask him for more than what I can give back. I think it's the responsibility of the traders to maintain a reasonable system so that this doesn't turn into a meat market. If this holds true, the "personal experience" gained from trading can still be achieved.

Personally, I think this will come in handy more when the Features are playing shows all over the country. Then there will be shows that none of us Nashvillians can get to that we'd want for one reason or another.

But pretty much no one here would be able to trade for any of them.

I have recordings of Features shows from several different sources, so I'm not too worried about it. But for the person whose bootlegs have come exclusively from one source who won't allow them to pass them on, it will be frustrating to not be able to trade for new shows.

I understand where RD and others are coming from on this. I'm just trying to think about the situation from all angles.

(Edited by jamiecarroll at 11:24 am on Feb. 1, 2004)

OK, I should have clarified this...

When I say that I am worried about someone trading every single show that I have given them, I am definitely not saying that they're all my own shows. The point is, if I give somebody something that it still pretty rare (and it didn't come from me originally), that's when I grow concerned about mass-trading. I don't want the originator of that rarity to get fucked over, just because I gave one or two people something prior to the sites inception, and now it's possible for it to get traded around A LOT. That is completely and totally where I am coming from. And, for the record, I have never, nor will I ever get upset about someone giving away bootlegs that I have made and given to them. The main reason that I record is so that I have something recent when I feel that there's a person who needs to be introduced to the Features, De Novo Dahl, The Privates, or The Mattoid. It's also so that current fans get to hear a new song when it has come out. Bootlegs serve a lot of purposes, the least of which is me holding onto one of my own for dear life, in faith that it will one day be worth a shitload of money. They also come in handy for the collecting aspect, where I can trade my own shows for something cool that I didn't even know existed. And finally, for buying friends. What SoundAsEver has done is wonderful. She's passing what I taped on to someone else in hopes that they will like it. I am ALL for that. I think the site should be fine. Some of my concerns have been covered and I think I could benefit from joining it.

I will say this, if you have any of my shows that were made before approximately October of 2003 (except for out-of-town acts), you are doing yourself and myself a disservice by trading them to anyone. Those things are pieces of shit.

(Edited by richarddawson at 12:37 pm on Feb. 1, 2004)

I'd love to have a couple of bootleg shows to listen to. I have nothing to offer in return, but I'm a genuine Features fan living in the UK who has known of the the band for 5 years or so, and hasn't been able to get hold of any of their material (other than all the songs from the defunct website, their recent UK CD release and the Thursday/Rabbit March 10 inch vinyl).

I was hoping that maybe with said Trading Union I could expand my collection from pretty much zero to having some of their other stuff too.

Ummm, I'm not sure where this places me on any debate...

I'd say anyone, myself included, will be obliged to help out a new fan across the pond.

Ditto.

Me Three.

Fuck the newbie!

you four?

Four-some?

Four play?

I need to start bootlegging.

I can't give you a thumbs up OR down on this. But my guess is the band will accept it since they have been pretty hands-off with audience recordings in the past and they know that these things ultimately wind up on tapes and now CDs. I don't wish to get involved on how this should or shouldn't be handled.

Makes sense. In that case, we'll continue operations until (or if, rather) we get a thumbs down. Thanks.

My opinion.

The Features play great music. They are trying to get their music dispersed to a wide listening audience. If they have no problem with someone recording their copyrighted work and dispersing it, then lets get this thing going.

Source:
no matter whom records any show, the features still own all copyrights to the recordings and can gain back any loses if so necessary from those recording or sharing the music. THE FEATURES own it, not those who buy a 200 dollar DAT recorder and master it.

Problem:
Those whom did purchase the 200 dollar DAT recorder, wants recognition for doing so. EVEN though in the reality, the music recorded using this device is not and never will be thier personal property (they in essence are stealing without permission).

Solution:
Join the trading post, as long as the copyright owners agree. If the features allow thier work to be freely dispersed, for whatever reason, lets do it, and give others a chance to hear such work. Personal gain of those recording the work should not be the priority issue. RD, and others, we do appreciate your efforts, and your electronic purchases, but jeeze guys, the features are doing you a favor by allowing you to record, they are GIVING you thier music, lets think past the self promotion. Shouldn't this be about Features promotion?

Make no mistake, RD signed up just this morning, and he'll be officially added in the next update. Also, let's try not to point any fingers at those who generate the recordings...they are obviously the folks that make such a union possible.

1. You obviously haven't read anything that I've posted.
2. Buy your own damn recorder and do the production and editing yourself. You are NOT ENTITLED to anything.
3. Self-promotion??? Shall I make a list of all of the people who have received a FREE Features bootleg from me, as an act of SPREADING THEIR MUSIC TO A WIDER AUDIENCE, though my memory might get foggy around #250. I AM NOT ENTITLED TO ANYTHING, and NEITHER ARE YOU. Do the legwork yourself and see how you feel about it.
4. Today is NOT a good day to start shit with me. Though, I would argue that I would get pissed about your comments any day of the week.
5. As for stealing without permission, I have asked both Roger and Matt on separate occassions if they are down with it, both of them replied that they are ok with anything like that, as long as studio material is not being distributed. For God's sake, Roger wanted to see what I was using to record. I have not got to report to you about anything!
6. Go fuck yourself and stop assuming things.
7. I hate it when people incorrectly spell "their".

For the record, I liked and agreed with your posts until this one. But, you have no place to be making assumptions about my bootleg practices, nor do you have any right to tell me how I am being "difficult" when you obviously have no idea how generous and well-intended I am.

(Edited by richarddawson at 9:13 pm on Feb. 2, 2004)

thanks for the extra hook up lastnight, RD

I must have been too drunk, *I don't remember*...(implied sarcasm)

yeah

wrong



the features are the new nirvana

I was making the comparison to livenirvana.com to simply show that the system works, regardless of the size of the community/union/whatever. Obviously, there's not too much to compare sound-wise...

Yes, it is, but I don't think it's a very valid one.


True, but I think that their entire strategy is based on studio recordings and selling their pressed records. The trading of live material is only a bonus to what they are trying to do in their promotion of EPs and albums. I think this has led to their current "hands off" policy with all live recordings.

...who...who records any show.

Copyrights don't really apply in this case, especially because I'll give a pretty safe bet that about half of any given Features show isn't copyrighted (at least). In that case, we're simply talking about their intellectual property.

First, let's clear this up: Those who did purchase the 200 dollar DAT recorder want recognition for doing so. (Note the omitted s and comma).

Second, you make a very large leap in logic when you talk about someone recording a show and then accusing them of stealing the Features' intellectual property. The band gives anyone permission to record a show. They give that permission with no question of whether or not we're going to hide it in a closet, trade it on the internet, or use it as the soundtrack for our amateur gay porn flick (coming soon by the way). Yes, the Features own their intellectual property. But with an open policy such as theirs, I interpret it to mean that I can do whatever I want with it. Stealing only comes into play when money is made from it, and no one who tapes these shows will sell them. When it isn't about making money, I feel that I can do whatever I want with that recording. RD chooses to give his away. I choose to trade mine occasionally (or videotape two naked guys kissing while "Two by Two" is played in the background).

I won't touch the grammar of that last group of words. Again, you make a leap in logic there from accusing someone of stealing to saying that they are entitled to give it away.

And for the record Pokey Dot, (assuming that you were trying to eventually get your hands on some shows) all that you had to do was ask for a recording and plenty of people (myself included) would have done their best to help you. I would say that now, in my book, you are fucked.

Hit a sore spot?

My point,
I was concerned that people thought they could control the distribution of copyrighted, (fixed in a tangible medium) intellectual property that is not theirs to begin with. If, for instance, the Features would only give out CDs to those people that they met, on an personal level, than thats fine, it is their right to do so. Not RDs, granted, he did physically push record on his box.

I am not putting down those whom record the shows, I have heard some of your work on the KY website (great idea!). And if the Features will allow this practice, than I am all for it. I am new here, and was simply using you (Richard Dawson) as an example, because you declined sharing your recordings in an earlier post. I feel, that being generous with a generous band's material is a wonderful, superb, idea. I was unaware that RD then signed up for the Trade Union when I made earlier post.
Continue on.

PS sorry, I suck at typing. My bad yo.


I sure hope I'm not fucked.....

(Edited by PokeyDot at 10:04 pm on Feb. 2, 2004)

Elitism check, guys. Don't make me come out of the moderator's cave I've been in.

oh fuck it, my other posts aptly sum up my points.

I just don't like being used as an example for something that isn't even justified. I share. End of story.

(Edited by richarddawson at 10:18 pm on Feb. 2, 2004)

Let's lay off the man's grammar. It's an internet message board, not an English paper.

One or two jabs about grammar are sometimes funny, but when we repeatedly insult someone's grammar skills, it makes us look like such pompous assholes.

(Edited by jamiecarroll at 11:30 pm on Feb. 2, 2004)

but i like assholes

I'm too lazy to go through and quote stuff...

Lots of people have stuff that I don't have, but want. I have some things that people want, but don't have. It sucks, but that's the way it is. I'm all about sharing, but if someone doesn't want to, they don't have to. I think this has all been said before, but yeah, there it is again.

I'm starting to wonder about the increasing amount of homoeroticism on this board.

I was thinking the same thing. Want to come over and "talk" about it?

Let's not bring your sex life into this.

swordfighter

Donutbumper.

booty food chaser

I'd love to hear some of these UK shows that are happening. If there are any UK bootlegs floating around, PM me and I'll gladly trade. I've got lots of home-grown Tennessee material.

Update 02/08/04

The Trading Union has been updated with new members and new bootlegs with another, larger update on the way. Check it out, and if you haven't already, consider joining up. Thanks for reading!

I cleared my history and all, yet still can't see the updates to the webpage.

I like the way the site is shaping up. I like the idea of documenting the shows even if they're not offered up for trade (or even in existence as bootlegs), especially in noting the debut of a new song. It'd be cool if we could create some sort of comprehensive fan site, with lyrics, tabs, show dates and a trading union all in one. Wiyum's already done an excellent job, and i'm a nut for that kind of stuff, but it could be more interactive...interactive!!

That would be cool! Maybe it could even have a message board where we could discuss The Features!

if you don't have anything to add to the thread, you don't have to say anything.

I have given serious thought to creating a simple site devoted to archiving Features setlists. It would basically just be an interactive version of the "Concert Reviews" section of this message board. This (forgive me) would be the blueprint.

So like I said, I've thought about it, but my HTML skillz are seriously shitty, so if someone wants to take this idea and run with it, by all means feel free.

Good deal, JD. I'm going to get in on this league shortly. Just give me a day or five to get my ducks in a row.

I've given serious thought to adding a gigography to the discography site. Basically just a compilation of the postings here, and likely just the setlist portions. I'd link each "last played" date to that gigography page as well, for the seamless flow that I intend the site to have.

I've also given serious thought to revising that site in a major way. A site I found that incorporated some of the same things in a different format is here. I like the look of it, and it does list the last time played, but I feel that the discography site would be missing something if I adopted that format.

Still, there's something clunky about the number of images used on the current format, and I'd like something that looked more elegant. I encourage anyone that likes the site to give me feedback on what they'd like it to be, because it really exists for everyone else.

Finally, in coming revisions, whether major or minor, two things are certainties:
1. "Interactive" will be removed from the title. No one seems to like that.
2. The "Features EP Head" is here to stay.

Please let me know what you do or don't want. Apart from simply bringing the site up to speed, because clearly that's something I want to do. Free time is on my horizon...

Will

You can expect me to create such a resource (and much much more) by the start of this autumn. (I give it so much time because I don't want to debut it until I have a wealth of actual content and a registered domain name, so I'm being realistic) Also, Lauren suggested the idea of a searchable show archive that goes into immense detail (a la DN Song Guide, but for setlists rather than songs...hell, maybe both) is an excellent idea that I will consider for the autumn resource, but will probably be added on a later date due to the fact that that would require creating a potentially complex script that would take some time to figure out how to write, then to actually do it. I promise I'll try to make one eventually, though.

Note: RD pointed out that there are some flaws in my show comments, which I will hopefully be fixing tonight.

Such an application would be much easier to maintain if you used a database on the backend to store the information. Then you could write some PHP or ASP pages to pull the information and display it on a web page.

I've always thought you could do search for interesting correllations if you had an adequate data set. For example, you could ask, "What's the chance that 'Exhibit A' will be played in a set if 'Kari Anne' is played."

Just out of curiosity, Jakob, what is your annual budget for this site?

That's why I'd never go very far in a web project without the help of the TF.

Well, yeah, but that requires know-how. I'm semi-familiar with PHP, or at least have a friend who is rather competent with that stuff...he made the Heatstroke Records design, and the site is in PHP. He may be of help, but I see you implying that you seem to know how to do it...mind if I elicit your aid when the time comes?

Annual budget for which site? The Union, or the site I'll be making? The Union is hosted on Heatstroke webspace currently (unfortunately) which I pay $15/month for. The future, bigger resource, will be of a budget to be determined.

Updated again! Bigger update coming soon.

I stress that those of you who want to join but haven't yet do so now. Thank you and goodnight.

EDIT: God damn it! I just finished a big update but instead of dragging the hard drive files to the net, I dragged the net files to the hard drive, erasing my work. Shit...what a waste of time. Until next time...

(Edited by Jakob Dorof at 9:27 pm on Feb. 17, 2004)

February 29th --- -Big- update, including a new MidTN bootleg trading page and the like. Check it out and tell me what you think! Thanks,

-Jakob Dorof

(Edited by Jakob Dorof at 9:15 pm on Feb. 29, 2004)

wow, keep up the great work! I'm sure this has taken you a lot of time to put together and I can guarantee you everyone that has used it appreciates it more than you know. As for me, haven't used it as of yet, but I'll be signing up in a day or so. keep up the good work!