Hi,
I'm a frequent visitor to this message board and have a quick poll to ask of you guys and gals.

I have been seeing someone for about a month now. And I knew when I went into it, that he had alot of girl friends. I can say, in the beginning it did not bother me that much. But things have changed. We will be hanging out watching a movie or even being intimate and one or more of his girl friends will call. He of course answers and says call me back some other time. But it is really causing alot of jealousy on my behalf. He insists that they are just friends, but I know that he talks to them just as frequently, if not more frequently as talks to me.

I know it all comes down to a trust issue, and I guess I trust him. I don't think he is doing anything romantic with them. But I have always been told that girls and guys cannot be real friends without some sort of attraction gluing it together. And it makes me feel like he's filling a void with these other girls in his life. I wish I wouldnt get so jealous, but I cant help it.

So, any ideas or thoughts?

Someone wanna field this one...?

He's cheating on you, and you've seen When Harry Met Sally too many times.

I have guy friends and most of them I would never ever date. You can be friends with someone of the opposite sex, believe it or not!

Maybe you should try this wonderful thing called communicating. I'm sure this guy isn't a mind reader, and maybe he doesn't understand that it makes you feel uncomfortable and jealous. Talk to him about it!

How sensitive, Ceeze.

Definitely do talk to him, but don't accuse him of anything... don't even approach it thinking that he's guilty. He most likely isn't. If you go about it the right way, the worst that can happen is a little fight, and even then you've makeup lovin' to look forward to.

Good luck

I'm really a bad person to take advice from on this topic, but I'll throw my two cents in the fountain anyway.

First of all, let's define "friends." Does friends just mean that two people are not in a committed relationship with each other? Can "friends" flirt with each other? Can "friends" accidentally kiss late at night when they've had too much wine? Can "friends" do what mommies and daddies do, if only every once in a while? I'm going to assume that what's meant here by "being friends" is that the two people involved do not ever engage in any physical acts of romantic love.

I do think that a heterosexual woman and man can be just friends. But pulling this off requires at least one of the following two things: 1) a lack of attraction, or 2) an adequate amount of self-control. Category 1 is pretty easy. But it's harder to be "just friends" with someone who you find attractive. [As an aside, let me just say that it can be very hard] The million dollar question is: do you have enough self-control to not act on your attraction? And so, Ms. BoardMember, I think that's what you need to ask yourself about your man. Does he have enough self-control to behave himself around these female friends of his? If you think that he doesn't have that amount of self-control, you need to end the relationship (assuming you don't want to share him). If you honestly feel that he does, then you need to start grappling with having more trust in him [Which is also very hard]. Also, even if you decide you don't think he would cheat on you, you might find that you just don't like dating a guy who has lots of girlfriends. And that's okay too. Just be honest with yourself and with him.

(Edited by jamiecarroll at 1:15 am on May. 31, 2004)

www.laddertheory.com/

Read it.

This Ladder Theory bruises the hell out of my ego.

Do men really rank us like that?

(Edited by simone at 1:02 am on May. 31, 2004)

Though there are certainly elements of truth in the ladder theory, it is overall quite flawed. It rests on the assumption that all that any man wants is to have sex, and all any woman wants out of any man is a cut of his resources. These assumptions are untrue.

Men like to tout the ladder theory, because it's kind of a fuck you to the female race.

I don't agree 100% with the ladder theory, but there is more truth there than people ever want to admit.

And I think it is pretty insulting to the male "race" as well.

(Edited by Keith at 12:20 am on May. 31, 2004)

Ah, I see...

However, the more men piss us off with this Ladder bullshit, the more we're tempted withold our own personal "resources" from them.

It's complicated, really. But what do I know? I gave up on men long ago.

Sweet. I'm the only who voted no so far. I'm not a woman so I can't speak for them. But I can tell you that guys are never friends with girls unless there's some level of attraction there. It may not be huge, and he may never act on it. For a guy, though, friendship with any girl is always based on a romantic attraction.

If you read below this message, you'll see a bunch of guys post on here that I'm wrong and it's not true. They'll cite numerous examples of girls they're friends with and to whom they have no attraction. They're either ashamed to confess their attraction or living in denial.

None of this means that your relationship is doomed. If he's making time with you, being intimate with you, and putting his "friends" off so he can be with you, you're in good shape. Don't worry... and have some fun. Just be sure to tell him when you're ready to be exclusive because he (hopefully) won't ask you first.

I've always found myself preferring the companion piece to The Ladder Theory found here:

http://www.intellectualwhores.com/

If a guy friend gives his girl "friend" a mix, it's all over.

(Edited by etcetera at 11:26 pm on May. 30, 2004)

There is a good bit of truth there.

however, its not the same for girls. i have plenty of guy friends i wouldnt think about dating, but im fairly certain if i were to get fresh with any of them, none of them would oppose. i think the same goes for most girls.

(Edited by rachel at 12:53 am on May. 31, 2004)

Actually, I would argue that there is less truth than people would ever want to admit, at least on the part of men. What percentage of men that you know are truly the way that the Ladder Theory says that "men" are (i.e. a walking cock and balls)? 10%? Maybe 25%? I mean, we all know "that guy," but the truth is that most all of us have a deep thirst for a loving relationship, or at least something more meaningful than just fucking. Yet we all try to talk like at the end of the day, all we want is someone hott waiting on our bed. I think most men are truly less concerned about sex than they seem to be.

First off, thank you for all the replies!

I decided to edit this post for a few reasons. But I think my situation really comes down to trust. And at this point, I'm not sure how much I really do trust him due to some past situations. But I guess I'll just wait and see what happens next.

P.S. I liked the ladder theory, it made me smile. How accurate it is, I'm not sure.

(Edited by BoardMember at 8:09 am on May. 31, 2004)

i've found i'm rarely friends with a girl that i'm not attracted to, for some reason...so the real issue is self-control. i'm not aggressive, so the only way anything untoward ever happens with my lady-friends (not to be confused with 'special' lady-friends or hookers) is if they are actively trying to give me a rummage. so my concern, if you trust the guy, is what kind of girls are they, and do they want him? i've never cheated on anyone and would consider myself a 'good guy', but it would be difficult for me to reject the sexual advances of a hot, aggressive girl...if she was just throwing herself at me in a ruthlessly sexual way...er, but yes, men & women can be friends with no strings, though it can be a delicate balance to be sure.

I don't think Ladder Theory is about sex at all. I read it in the context of romantic attraction. I think "sex" was used instead purely for dramatic effect. It's not about whether you have sex with the person or not. Instead, it's about the people with whom you want to have sex.

If a girl isn't sexually attracted to a guy, she's not in love with him. End of story. Just because she doesn't follow through with those impulses doesn't mean anything. That could because of upbringing, fear of pregnancy, wisdom about the effects of physical intimacy on a relationship, or a thousand other reasons. However, if she thinks, "It would be really gross to lie half-naked in that guys arms," she's not attracted to him.

The Ladder Theory is trying to warn us (the guys) that just because a woman lets you buy her dinner, wash her car, and occassionally laughs at our stupid jokes doesn't mean she wants to be romantically involved with you. Women will spend lots of time with guys they don't want to date. Guys aren't that way so much so we get confused very easily.

In the battle of the sexes, the men are getting slaughtered.

And we always will.

A lot my guy friends are very, very hot. That doesn't mean I want to sleep with them. Well, not all of them.

I disagree. there's no specific sex getting slaughtered. there's types of people getting left in other's romantic dust, but not a specific gender.

TF, I'm sorry, but I also disagree with your quote about guys only being friends with girls that they want. As surprising as this may be, one of my favorite girls on this earth (and yes, she is a friend) is not and will never be a romantic interest of mine. We do not like each other like that. We have a common bond. pot-smoking. We like to do that and share stories from our two very different worlds. She tells me about Eminem and I tell her about the Kinks. I've made uncountable CDs for her over the years, which we discuss at length after she's listened to them. You just can't say that in every situation, a guy is out to get some ass. 98% of the guys? ok, sure, whatever. but, it's just not true in every single case. am I attracted to my friend's personality? of course! isn't that what a really great friend is all about? liking who a person is, and sharing things that the two of you like.

JC pretty much summed up my thoughts in his first post.

the only reason uys and girls have trouble being just friends is because it almost always interferes with the romantic relationships that the individuals establish.

boardmember, if you don't trust him, then dump him immediately. you'll save yourself a lot of heartache in the long run.

I wanted to add something. The ladder theory pretty much supports many things that I believe, but I found something that it is lacking to mention.

The rebound guy (or girl).

He almost always gets laid, no matter where on the ladder he falls. Merely due to female (or male) emotional instability and pure circumstance, rather than money or power or fuckability.

That's my point. That's why I was careful to say that the guy may have no intentions of acting on his attraction... but it is there. I have numerous female friends who I would never date in a million years because they're messed up in the head or they smoke or they want to spawn or whatever. That doesn't change the fact that I know that there's a wee tiny bit of romantic attraction there.

I guess what I'm saying is that you shouldn't confuse romantic attraction with being attracted to someone as a person, on a friend level. I am attracted to ceeze's personality, because he is funny and interesting, but as surprising as it may be, I do not have the slightest of romantic inclinations with him. and just because my friend Melissa is a girl, it does not mean that the situation is any different.

So by that same line of logic, would you also say, TF, that two men or two women could never actually be just friends? Aren't all "friends" of any sex "attracted" to each other, in the strictest sense of the word?

Fuck.

I can't address the "two women" situation because I know absolutely nothing about women. As for the two guys, though, I don't think "buddy attraction" is the same as "sexual attraction." In general, think about how guys interact with each other and how a guy interacts with a girl who's just a friend. It's different.

Could there possibly be a very rare exception where a guy treats a girl like she's "one of the boys"? Sure. But those are instantances are rarer than we think. Since we're talking about generalities, I think it's best to ignore those one-in-a-million situations.

keith could teach you the path of wisdom that you are seeking

...as I sit here alone with a bottle of Jack and a Hustler.

My opinion: guys and girls can be friends. According to Tom Foolery, I'm either in denial or ashamed to admit it, but I do have a few platonic girl friends. I'm currently seeing a girl who has several guy friends that she hangs out with alone on ocassion, but I trust her (although we do have an open relationship).

I'm also good friends with one or two girls who I've expressed an interest in but did not reciprocate that interest.

As in "to swing"?

(Edited by Ceeze at 9:13 pm on Jun. 1, 2004)

Okay, here goes. I believe to be a friend with the opposite sex requires some level of attraction. The problem is that most people assume that attraction means "fuckability." That is not the case. You are attracted to people for different reasons, either due to interests, proximity, pure friendship, or a sexual attraction. Unfortunately we have been "cultured" to flirt in order to interact with the opposite sex for the first time. And sometimes, that initial flirting begins a relationship or friendship based on the wrong attraction. As humans, we assume that if someone of the opposite sex begins a conversation, that person is interested in a sexual relationship, when that probably isn't the case. If only people would state their desired relationship when one begins, would that eliminate the confusion. And if one "becomes" attracted to the opposite sex as more than friends, it needs to be discussed, but sometimes that is impossible too.

very true

what about your girl friends?

I want to sleep with all of my girlfriends.

It may seem like a good idea... but trust me, it gets tiresome after a while.