At one point in time, in the not too distant past, Wilco was the most important band in my life. Over the past two years, especially since the departure of Ken Coomer, I have been unable to identify with the band and have steadily lost interest. These feelings were solidified with the release of the forgettable record that is Yankee Hotel Foxtrot.
The fact of the matter is that Summerteeth is Wilco's best record, period, don't bother arguing because you are wrong if you disagree. Summerteeth is one of the best records of the 90's along with the likes of Either/Or, The Soft Bulletin, etc. Thus, aside from the poor editing and puff-piece feel of the film, it was hard to get into "I am trying to break your heart" for no other reason than i don't think the story was all that intriguing to begin with. I thought the only part of the film that had any momentum and insight was the few minutes that dealt with the departure of Jay Bennett. The rest was boring crap that failed in its attempt to dramatize a mediocre record. Amazingly, the only real drama was the row between Tweedy and Bennett while mixing.
To change gears, while I once held "Being There" in very high regard, I must agree with neuboy in his observation that it is equally brilliant and forgettable. I do, however, take exception to the argument posted before that it is "too alt. country" in some places. Fuck that. While most alt. country bands are unoriginal and boring, and I don't make a habit of listening to alt. country on a weekly or even monthly basis, the genre is just as capable of rare beauty as any other musical form. And I feel that Wilco's crusades into alt. country music are (for the most part) nothing short of brilliant and showcase the full possiblity of the genre. Take Neil Young's "After the Goldrush" or even *gasp* (the sound of my hipster rating falling) "Harvest Moon" for instance. Or the Band's "Music from Big Pink" or the new Beck record for Chrissakes! So fuck off if you are unable to enjoy something simply due to the genre you classify it under. I also find it ironic that part of Jeff Tweedy's love for country music was the fact that it roused precisely those kind of responses.

With that said, Wilco is certainly not at their best when making alt. country, or minimalist noise. They are at their best making music like Summerteeth. I do see, however, how YHF is a natural progression from Summerteeth, and it wouldn't be acceptable for Wilco to stick with one sound for the rest of their career. I guess, it just seems to me, that they are simply no longer making music from the heart, but rather from some sort of cerebral world of hip rock critics, snappy managers, documentary filmmakers, replacement drummers, and other yes men and sycophants that have indulged Jeff Tweedy's insecurity-based need for commercial acceptance and recognition for his pseudo-edgy art. Sorry to make a whole topic out of this...


P.S. For those who know me, take note: these are perhaps my last serious words on Wilco. I have moved on to other bands that are currently far more important in my life. It was fun while it lasted, but All Things Must Pass.

that's odd to hear that out of you. that's like me denouncing blur(which could be a possibility considering graham's out). it's off the wilco topic, but i think beck's "sea changes" owes a bit more to serge gainsbourg's "histoire de melody nelson" than alt. country. it's not like i've listened to it a lot(not like i've listened to any beck a lot), but that "paper tiger" song should give credit where credit is due. wilco, alt. country, & beck have always bored me. i've actually heard some neil young i like. his lyrics are just so damn hokey most of the time. i guess that means neil young still bores me. this has not added anything relevant to your post, but the elt likes to ramble sometimes too.

Wilco has pretty much bored me too. There isn't anything offensively bad, but I've never really gotten it I guess. What I've heard of Summerteeth, which is admittedly not a lot, was pretty cool so I will try to listen to that one more. I have heard YHF a lot, and Being There a couple times and really couldn't get into either one. I'm glad you've finally let me admit this, Roadie.

wow keith. i would have figured that you had heard summerteeth at least a few times thru sharing a house with roadie, at least until he moved on. summerteeth is the best.

oh my dear friend roadie, what happened? old and new testament?perhpaps it's that ridiculous influx of wacky music that ebbs and flows out of your house like boxed wine (see neuboy's choices in the listening sections); perhaps you've forgotten your midwestern roots (you've been in middle tennessee too long); perhaps, like all great people, you are growing up. whatever it is, i respect you for it. to admit someting like not being able to identify with one of your favorite bands is a bold statement. be good, my dear.

I still love Wilco, but I think that they are a very mediocre live band, and I feel that their best days are behind them. They will never be as good as when Jay Bennett was in the band, in my opinion. But YHF is not as bad as roadie makes it out to be.

ELT brought up the Blur issue. Blur is nothing less than my favorite band of all time, behind the Beatles. But I am scared, friends. The news does not sound good. Blur without Graham? I don't want to think about that. Graham is Blur! I fear that this album may cause me to make a roadie-esque statement about them. Please prove me wrong, Blur!

so Graham isnt in Blur anymore?!?! well that's not good news. i guess the new album should be called Gorillaz part two, i mean it is being produced by fatboy slim.......

let me start by saying wilco is/was my favorite band

-to refer to glen as simply a "replacement drummer" is an insult. he is easily 4 times the drummer ken was
-i could never choose between summerteeth or YHF, both are amazing in my opinion
-"being there" would have made 1 hell of a single album, with no filler
-i think wilco is better off without jay, in the studio he tends to over-produce and live he's all about cock-rock and guitar solos. two of the worst products ever to escape the 70's

Check.


No, I'd have to say YHF. In fact...


Makes a great double album, on that I like more than (gasp) Summerteeth (but not Yankee Hotel).


Double check. A listen to his solo album demonstrates that he was everything I didn't care to have in my Wilco, thank you kindly.

Now what's the band up to? They finished their record with The Minus Five, are working on/have finished the Loose Fur record, and have been quoted as saying that they are working on at least 2 more seperate albums... plus there are SO many YHF demos that could find release... I'm just hungry for more.

Will

(Edited by Wiyum at 9:15 am on Nov. 22, 2002)

Ken Coomer is is great and Wilco's loss is Bare Jr.'s gain. And I still love Wilco... they have never been my favorite, but I greatly enjoy them.

Graham is no longer in Blur? Preposterous.
Exliontamer. How long did it take you to notice that Beck had totally ripped off Serge Gainsbourg? About five seconds right? How fucking obvious could it be? I've got to say, I think Sea Change is pretty overrated as well. I mean, it's great, but certainly not the "better Mutations" as some have said. The songs were drastically better on mutations in my opinion. I know Beck just broke up with his girl of six years and he's in mourning and wrote those songs in a week or whatever and he wanted to make a more "straightforward" record. Honestly though, most of those songs are boring and the lyrics aren't that great. The record sounds great, but you can only polish a turd so much. It's kind of the way I feel about YHF. Some of the songs are great, some are okay, but ultimately the end result is boring. That said, I don't like Jay Bennet's wanky guitar histrionics. But whatever.

Oh yeah, before etcetera outs me I should say that I did like YHF. In fact, I still do. I just like UHF better.

You just got too cool for YHF because of all your IDM and EAR and other such acronymic classifications as only someone who thinks he shares an inner child with John Cage would.

(Edited by etcetera at 10:31 am on Nov. 22, 2002)

Don't try to rubricize me.

I love the new Beck album, but it doesn't really feel like a Beck album at all. There is literally not a hint of irony on the whole thing. Even 'Mutations' felt like a Beck album. Still, I like 'Sea Change' a lot. It's like equal parts 'Harvest Moon' and 'OK Computer.'

Say what you want about Jay Bennett, but I think that he brought out the best in Jeff Tweedy, and hence Wilco. They made a great team. Jay Bennett is a great pop songwriter and a brilliant arranger. Wait till you hear the next Wilco album...you'll see how much they miss him.

Amen to that.
I've said for months now that Jay Bennett and Jeff Tweedy will, in time, go down as one of the best songwriting partnerships of the last decade or so. I really don't think that's even debatable.
I mean, listen to A.M., (no Jay, although he gets a thank you), and then listen to Being There...it's a seismic shift that Jay Bennett had a huge hand in...John Stirratt has said over and over again that Summerteeth was "Jay's Record..." Most people don't even realize he co-wrote all but 9 tunes on Yankee Hotel (I happen to apparently one of the few on the board that think it's an instant clasic, and, no, I thought that long before I heard all the hype about it). I think it's doubly interesting that Jay put "My Darlin'" on his record. ...
Jeff will always be Wilco (the singer IS the song), but there would have doubtfully ever been a Being There, Summerteeth, or YHF without Jay.
Just my three cents.

IDM is not to be mocked...

Will
IDM fan

You make a fine point jamie (as one would expect you to). Maybe it isn't Jay himself but Jay as a part of Wilco that is to be liked. Jay himself I've decided I don't much care for.

That said, I was hooked by the post-loss-of-Jay-Wilco-live-experience and I find that alot of YHF is better in this way, though I'm sure his presence is still felt through the songwriting. I just look at everything I like best about YHF and I don't see it in Jay's solo album, so I'm doing some subtraction that probably doesn't work in the scheme of things.

Will

tweedy is a man who is in constant need of a partner in crime, a wall to bounce ideas off of. his three major musical collaborators, jay farrar, jay bennet, and glen koche have all brought out a different facet of his songwriting/production styles. farrar and ut shows us that he could write punk or country songs. summerteeth is basically a jay bennet album-the sweet melodies and big production. and if you've ever heard any of koche's solo stuff you can see hat that is a huge influence on where YHF went. perhaps being there was the only by-the-book tweedy wilco album.

Even though I've seen Wilco six times (4 good, 1 ok, 1 bad), and i've listened to them as much as any other band for the last four years, I guess it all comes down to a matter of taste. Ok Ok, I'll give you that Jay Bennett wanks on guitar. My point is that Jay had everything to do with Summerteeth. He produced it and co wrote most of the songs. Whoever said that Jay over produces must be a huge pavement fan. As someone who is in love with and has a degree in the analog recording arts I would say that Summerteeth is as close to a perfectly produced record as you can find in the 90's. Period. And its all Jay. On the other hand, I haven't heard Jay's solo record with what's his name and its very possible that record is overproduced.

Now, as for Kotche, I'm sure he's a super nice guy and very talented and yes, he may be more technically talented than Ken Coomer but fuck, thats like saying you'd prefer Peart over Ringo. Coomer was a simplist who played for the song, period. Kotche plays for his college percussion teacher. I mean come on, one thing I always loved about Wilco is they didn't have all that stupid hippy dippy percussion shit. Listen to Sunken Treasure live with Coomer and now with Kotche and you'll see exactly what I mean. Glenn is back there trying keep himself busy during one of the most dramatic parts of that song.

Its too bad that people will remember Jay for his wanking. oh well.

ps. leave it to exliontamer and jamiecarrol to ease the discussion from wilco to blur almost unnoticeably.

Amen to everything, Roadie. Summerteeth is sheer production perfection. Jay Bennett is a genius. Glen Koadasdhshe does overplay.

I would just like to add that I saw I Am Trying to Break Your Heart tonight, and maybe it's because it was thoroughly ripped to shreds on this MB and consequently I went in with super-low expectations, but I liked it very much. Not the best rock documentary I've seen, but not bad at all. Wilco is one of those bands that I've never known much about apart from listening to their albums, and this was very insightful, in my opinion. I now officially want to start a Jay Bennett fan club.

guilty as charged
you say it like it's a bad thing

Jay Bennett's all fine and good I suppose. I'll grant that he had lots to do with the production and songwriting of Summerteeth. Ultimately, however, he holds little water as a solo artist. I went to see his show at Slow Bar and went to sleep at one of the booths it was so incredibly boring. He made an excellent partner for Tweedy, but that's about it. His version of "my darling" with his new side kick is worthless. I used to like that song a lot, but now i fucking hate it.
Oh, and Roadie, you don't have an "analog recording arts" degree. There's no such thing at mtsu. You've got a fucking music business degree.

my thoughts exactly...

I wasn't at the Jay Bennett Slow Bar show, but I did hear from everyone that went that it was mediocre. I can tell you why: it was just Jay and one other guy on acoustic guitars. That's Jay Bennett totally out of his element. He's not an acoustic-only kind of guy; he needs the backing of a full band. As far as his album goes, I heard it once and thought it was pretty cool.

Mine too. Guilty enough that I reread my posts in this thread 3 times to make sure that it hadn't been me.

God is Slow Century an amazing DVD set.

Will

I don't mind Pavement. I think some of their stuff is great. But they're probably one of the most overrated bands of all time.

well that's your opinion, neuboy....

however, i think they are one of the best bands ever (the best band of the 90's...that is a definite), they made consistently great albums, great songs, what more could one ask for?

(Edited by ray davies at 12:58 pm on Dec. 1, 2002)

Passable musicianship.

who cares if they weren't as technically proficient as other artists....they wrote amazing songs, played their hearts out, and gave the world five amazing albums. they did it better than any band of their time.

Yeah, I agree with ray. I gotta say that I feel the exact opposite of neuboy. I feel like Pavement barely got any of the recognition they deserved. I'm just now starting to realize how awesome this band was. I think they're definitely an acquired taste that many people just never took the time to acquire.

I really have nothing to back that up with.

Malkmus' vocals definately have to be acquired. I don't think I've been able to do that yet.

Pavement? No thanks. You know, I actually enjoyed Preston School of Industry (who opened for Wilco this summer) more than I've ever enjoyed anything by Pavement (and I've heard A LOT of Pavement).

All this Pavement bashing is making me shrink into a fetal position and cry.

Will

i feel your pain, wiyum.

Same here. I won't enjoy them any less because of it, though. Maybe even moreso...

So what's everyone's favorite pavement album? I think mine is Brighten the Corners, but it changes from day to day.

I have no problem with people not being incredibly proficient technically so long as they put out great music, songs, etc. Dylan wasn't a great guitar player and certainly wasn't a great singer and I love his stuff. I just don't enjoy Pavement. And I generally don't enjoy their fans. If you haven't heard everything in their catalog they feel like you have no reason to criticize them.

Yeah, I can definitely see that happening. I, on the other hand, feel like they have a pretty consistent sound and if you can really get into one of their albums, then you'll probably have an appreciation for the rest. On the other hand, if you don't like one, then you probably won't like the others. I think their 'debut' Westing (by Musket and Sextant) is an exception, though, because it's even more raw than the rest of their stuff (if you can believe it). Also, Terror Twilight (their last album) is very quirky and turns off a lot of people. The Stephen Malkmus and the Jicks album sorta picked up where TT left off. I happen to love it.

my favorite is wowee zowee, an absolutely great album.

Ouch! That's a bit harsh.

My favorite album, by the way, is Brighten the Corners, but it was my first. I liked Crooked Rain Crooked Rain more with each listen.

Will

For the record, I don't dislike pavement. I like some of their stuff. I'm not overly familiar with the catalog so I guess I have no room to talk (j/k). I think they are ok on the whole, but definitely not deserving of their mystique. This opinion could change in a few months because i've been finding myself getting more and more into them lately.

I didn't mean to say that being a pavement fan is a bad thing. I meant only to draw a corrolation to the fact that probably nobody on earth would call Summerteeth overproduced except for someone who prefers the raw Pavement sound. I am a huge low fi fan as well, but my "a great record" in my book requires something more than rough, out-of-tune guitars and "i don't care" recordings.

By the way, I apologize for my habit of bringing back old threads like this. I don't visit often.

i like the "raw" sound and the not-so-raw sound. i think for the most part summerteeth is produced brilliantly, but occasionally while listening to the album i feel like there is just one too many layered keyboard parts.
here and there, to me atleast it seems layers were piled on for the hell of it, rather than in service to the song.
when i said bennett over-produces, that was mainly aimed at his solo album

See, Westing is one of the ones I really like 'cause it's so fucked up. Whatever, I'm a hypocrite.

Westing is really good.....one of my favorites.....