you would never sell out
just like i did playboy
that was art!
it didn't count

but julian.... is the best song on the album. hello? second, then zepplin song.

It was so much better when Kurt and Billy were writing the songs.

So, so true.

I can offer up some evidence about the Kurt thing, if anyone wants to go there.

we already went over this, carligula. everyone says cs sucks, but then they say billy wrote it. so did he write a bad album? is that what you're saying, mr smashingpumpkinsfan?

you're such a child.

"yeeeeeaaaaahhh, i'm 6 years old rockin out to nervana!!!"

i thought billy just wrote a couple songs on that album.
didnt micheal stipe have something to do with a few songs too?

he co wrote a couple of songs. stipe was out.

With the songs BC co-write on Celebrity Skin, wasn't Courtney Love the other co-writer? I used to have the album and cannot find it, I don't think I'm wrong, though.

What I'm saying is Celebrity Skin would have been better if Billy had written ALL the songs.

Or if the Smashing Pumpkins had performed the songs.

Suck on that.

Corgan co-wrote a lot of the songs on Celebrity Skin, and yes Love was one of the other writers and all of the songs. The Cobain thing is a stretch, in my opinion, though she was undoubtedly influenced by her husband when she was writing and recording the songs for Live Through This. "Doll Parts" especially since Kurt collected dolls and had their parts lying about, plus the chorus always sounded like something Kurt would say. A lot of people went nuts with the Cobain theories when the version of "Asking For It" showed up with Kurt on backing vocals proving he was, at least, in the studio during the recordings of the album.

The other thing that makes the conspiracy nuts go wild is the Hole song "Old Age", a b-side which appears on the My Body: Hand Grenade disc. A few years ago a Nirvana tape started surfacing that featured demos the band was working on for Nevermind. On this tape was a song called "Old Age" featuring the same chord progression, melody, and the words "Old Age" in the verse. The credits on the Hole record made no mention of Kurt Cobain. Love later claimed that Kurt had given her the song and she rewrote most of the lyrics. I believe she now gives herself and Kurt credit... I think. She also claims that Kurt tried to give her Heart-Shaped Box, and that she herself actually helped Kurt write Pennyroyal Tea. Fact is they were MARRIED and both were songwriters. I'm sure they helped each other out, tried out songs, offered up others, etc., to each other all the time.

Anyway, I obviously know too much about this but I'm a huge Nirvana fan AND a big Hole fan. Live Through This and Celebrity Skin are two great records and Love was the constant on both. She clearly has talent. I sometimes can't stand her voice, but dammit that girl could (and I'm assuming still can) rock.

You could never know too much about Kurt and Courtney. Thanks for the lesson. Maybe I need to give Celebrity Skin another chance. It can't be as bad as that last turd she released.

when i think of live through this the first thing that pops in my head is anne sexton. i think more of her being an influence than kurt.

as long as it took me to come to like celebrity skin, i now find it brilliant. i love the album and everything that it came to represent.

my favourites are the bsides. 20 years in the dakota is probably my favourite hole song.

so far, i like 6 songs off america's sweetheart.

Funny that you insult my maturity, and then immediately draw up my (exaggerated) age as reason to bash my taste in music. I'm 15, and yes, I like Nirvana (I have since summer of 2002. I owe a lot to that band since they are what got me into music) and I'm sure I love plenty of bands you despise in addition to them. I'm sure our affection for The Features is mutual, but I also love the rest of the Spongebath roster (the original one, at least, some of which I [gasp!] love even more than the Features. They're all brilliant though), Feable Weiner and other artists that you have debased in the past (as well as their fanbase). And regardless of the homosexuality I apparently inherited from enjoying De Novo Dahl, what you say will never change my opinions --- unless of course you stop bringing up such petty differences as age and start bringing up some valid points (which still probably wouldn't affect my opinions).

As for the Courtney Love thing, I don't own anything by Hole, but through Kurt and Courtney's obvious affiliation I have listened to samples of some of their albums on iTunes. (The two that were available, anyway --- Live Through This and Celebrity Skin) I must say that I am deeply impressed by both, regardless of who their true masterminds may or may not have been. Several LTT songs sound great, and I also have an MP3 of a different edit of "Asking for It" featuring Kurt on BG vocals which I also enjoy. CS is great, including the title track, "Malibu," "Reasons to be Beautiful," "Northern Star," and "Playing Your Song." I intend to buy both albums to check her out furthermore when I get some cash...that is, after I catch up on the old SB stuff and several current MidTN bands. I haven't heard her new album even via iTunes samples yet, but I watched the new single's video and was rather unenthralled. Also, losing Frances at the Grammy's wasn't very responsible (and she's been doing all sorts of stupid stuff in the past year that easily equate to that event, perhaps even surpass it) and as a big Nirvana fan, my discontent with her is to be expected: she was the one who put an injunction on the release of the rarities box set a couple years back.

I could go on, but I have to go to a party. Adios,
-Jakob

(Edited by Jakob Dorof at 4:52 pm on Feb. 20, 2004)

who said i didn't like nirvana? how would one draw up that conclusion?

and when have i ever said anything about feable weiner? or their fans? considering the fact that i've never been to one of their shows and i don't recall ever listening to them, i pretty sure i wouldn't have said anything about them or their fans. please do a search and find this and prove me wrong. k?

and the box set, no one owes you (as a nirvana fan) or any other nirvana fan anything. those recordings belonged to kurt and his estate to do whatever they want with them. if he wanted to get them out to his future fans, he would've released them himself.

this is exactly the point i was making. all these nirvana kids come up saying their big fans and blah blah blah and they never fail to mention the fact that they've "been a huge fan since (insert a year)." like we're all suppose to drop and say "oooh, in that case..."


yeah, and a reeealllly responsible parent would kill themselves and leave their 3 year old daughter fatherless. i mean, what's courtney thinking?!?!?!?!

oh and courtney's been doing stupid stuff her whole life.

this thread is GAY

Way to be progressive in your critique of this thread.

Will

no, she's right. this thread is GAY.

i must say that, for a 15 year old, Jakob Dorof is quite the wordsmith...at least way better than most MTSU students. I have proofread some pretty shitty essays in my day.

My apologies about that --- I confused you with some other people who bashed them. I would've researched that one better if I wasn't already late for my friend's birthday party, but I know it's inexcusable. Sorry, really.


I didn't say that anyone owed Nirvana fans their unreleased recordings. However, David Grohl and Krist Novoselic (regardless of whether or not you think they were Kurt's replaceable backing band, they have much more to do with the music than Courtney --- they were in the band, she was not.And besides, saying either of them were just Kurt's backing band is ridiculous: Krist co-founded Nirvana with Kurt, and he was their only bassist throughout; Dave is an incredible drummer and contributed so much to their sound, and even their image. Nirvana wouldn't have been the same in 1991 without him...Chad Channing is a good drummer and has gotten better since his time with Nirvana, but he didn't fit their new sound at all) tried to release the music that they had a hand in and they (at least to a certain extent) co-wrote. If the only living members of Nirvana (except for Pat Smear, who joined after their last studio album and was never present for any of their known studio recordings after that) want to put out some unreleased stuff, I think that they should be able to. And of course, as with every Nirvana release, Courtney still gets Kurt's share of the profit, so it's not like she's getting push aside.


You're being awfully critical for something incredibly insignficant. People like to recall how long they've been listening for lots of bands...I guess with Nirvana it's especially "important" because it's a sort of "Are you a pre-suicide fan or a post-suicide fan?" type of thing. And it fit the situation since you said I was six and listened to Nirvana; I was pointing out that I am fifteen and that I have been a fan since I was fourteen. (Birthday's in May, for the record)


I never, EVER said Kurt was a good role model (outside of the realm of music at least) --- he wasn't. He was a very disturbed guy who did lots of drugs and was a little crazy from the start. (I still find the "Horror Movies" to be pretty disturbing) And of course, like you said, he committed suicide, leaving his daughter and wife behind him. He was definitely not a person to look up to.

Hole suck. And they always have. Yes, I've heard the records.

I agree, I've never liked Hole and I abhored Celebrity Skin.

I liked Hole, especially Live Through This which I think is a good album pretty much all the way through.

As far as Courtney's control over Kurt's songwriting, it's not like Kurt died in some freak accident and never had a chance to make a will. He killed himself and if he wanted to give his songwriting to Dave and Krist, he could have. Artists ultimately have control over what they do with their art. People complain that Michael Jackson owns The Beatles publishing, but nobody forced The Beatles to sign away their publishing in the first place. I'm probably opening up a whole new can of worms with that one, but it's true. Maybe we would have never heard of The Beatles if they didn't get a publishing deal, but they still made the decision to sell it off so they have to deal with it.

Ok, now I'm rambling, but I think this stuff applies to The Features too. From all accounts, The Features don't tour as much as they could because Matt has children that he needs to be able to support right now. This brings up a tough choice, I would imagine. If they got a fat publishing deal (which I bet they could), Matt would most likely not have to worry as much about how he is going to support his family. On the other hand, if The Features got huge, they are giving up way more money in the long run if they handed over their publishing. Also, when you have a publishing deal, that is a whole other group of people trying to get you out there and make you successful. It's gotta be a hard decision. All this stuff is based on assumptions, by the way. I have no inside knowldege about The Features and their publishing concerns.

Anyway, sorry to talk about The Features on this board.

I don't think it's really that tough of a decision.

1) signing over to a publisher is standard.
2) it's not like you're going to be able to get the same sphere of influence if you handle your own publishing, hence not as much earnings
3) i don't know that it's possible to become huge and keep tabs on all your earnings by yourself.

1) That doesn't mean it's necessarily the right thing to do.
2) It is possible to get big without a publishing deal. If you don't have one, (based on splitting the songwriting/publishing 50/50 as is the standard), you make twice as much in royalties without one. Again, that's a risk.
3) That's the business manager's job, not the publishing company's.

All that said, I think it is probably a good idea for The Features to get a publishing deal, because I don't think they are going to get big overnight by having a hit single. I think it will take time and a lot of touring, which means they'll need to get some money up front, and I doubt they have much tour support considering they have financed those England trips on their own, I think.

That music business major sure hasn't helped me get a job, but at least I can argue on The Features message board.

(Edited by Keith at 5:32 pm on Feb. 21, 2004)

I'll try to steer this thread back on topic...

What about De Novo Dahl? Will they sign a publishing deal?

I give them five years. They'll have an extensive catalog by then. And, they'll be better.

Just another thing related to uncollected artist income: don't forget about your Karaoke licensing. Most pub. companies don't have time to deal with it, and don't go after it. You have to hire someone to snag it from the Karoake companies. There are about 20 big companies out there who will pay a $150-$250 fixing fee per song, per product they put out. On top of that, you get anywhere from a 2K-10K unit advance at .10-.16 per unit royalty.

Slack - you should get yours!

MTSU vs. Belmont: the Music Business Majors Square Off!

I love it!

Uh, go Belmont, I guess.

Happy early birthday, Jakob! (really early)

Yeah. The people who re-recorded our song changed most of the lyrics (i think that they just couldn't figure them out), so does that make a difference? Also they changed the bass line and made it GAY. It was good for a laugh, though. One of my friends said he went to a karaoke bar and our song was on the list.......YES!!!!

Keith?

Agreed. 100% even. I like Nirvana and the Pumpkins an awful lot and have never been able to bear Hole, so the connection has certainly never been too apparent for me.

To get involved in something that I'd usually stay out of: Jakob: your argumentation and vocabulary belie your age rather well, as has been pointed out. Kudos. However, I'd have left out the attempt at establishing cred by saying you've liked Nirvana for a year. It isn't your fault that you're young and only just got into music, and you've certainly done your homework. But I, and several people you are going toe to toe with can classify themselves as fans for greater than half of their lives. Others can't only because they're that old. Merely in critique of your argumentation skills, it was something you'd be better simply avoiding rather than trying to justify.

Yeah debate team.

Will

Who you calling old?!?!?!?

Not old by any means. Merely "old enough" that being a Nirvana fan for over half of one's life is a biological impossibility.

Will

Ok, first of all, I don't know a whole lot about karaoke licensing. Second of all, it's almost 7am and I haven't gone to bed yet, so I'm hardly conscious enough to explain stuff.

In Slack's case, a CD is being sold of another band playing their song. Since it wasn't Slack's performance, they are not entitled to any mechanical royalties. However, since Slack (Chris I assume?) wrote the song, they are entitled to the publishing. I forgot and am too lazy to look up what the statutory rate is these days, but I think it's like 9.8 cents per song per album sold. Since Slack has already recorded the song and marketed it (via the Banger Sisters soundtrack), whatever band covered the song doesn't need a license or permission to record their own version, as long as they pay the proper publishing fees (the statutory rate). As far as money from "karaoke licensing," I have no idea. However, just because they changed a few words doesn't mean they can get out of paying the publishing fees. It's obviously still the same song.

By the way, you people should check out the original and karaoke versions of the song. It's pretty hilarious. I think it can all be found at slackattack.net.

The money you get from a Karoke License is not from mechanical royalties, Keith is correct. The companies use studio musicians to record the songs and usually state on the packaging that the songs are not performed by the original artist.

Some Karaoke companies try to secure licenses from the Harry Fox Agency, and will tell you they have a license already. However, HFA doesn't have the right to negotiate Karaoke licenses on behalf of writers. Only the songwriter, the writer's publishing company or a copyright admin company working on behalf of the songwriter may secure this license.

There is the Fixing Fee which is to compensate the songwriter for "fixing" the lyrics onto the CD-G (CD + Graphics) screen that displays them so you can read them as you sing.

I've not seen a license where the Karoake company is paying only the stat rate. Everything I've seen and worked on is at least .10 and up to .16 per song per unit. Probably b/c the companies usally don't request to use the song and you have to go after payment for existing product.

A standard deal is $150 Fixing Fee, .12 per unit advance on 2,500 units or so with a contract for 5 years of use before renewing the license.

By the way, Slack - BURN OUT appears on these:

Memorex Multiplex, Rock, Product # XMEM115
Top Tunes, Rock v13, Product # TT175

That's around $900.00 they owe you if you guys own 100% of the song....

I just did a simple search, not the whole shebang. There may be more.

Oh no, that wasn't a badge I was wearing with pride. I (understandably?) can't remember my exact line of thought when adding that bit on, but I think it was to clarify that I am fifteen, not six, and that I have been liking Nirvana since I was fourteen, again, not six. That might sound ridiculous, but everything so insignificant does when it's discussed at such great length. Am I making sense?

yeah, i really thought you were six. yeah, really. i'm glad you told me your real age, otherwise i would've been up all night thinking, "why is a 6 year old on the features message board?" now i can breathe a deep sigh of relief. thanks dorf

Really? Yeah? If you criticize my maturity to such an extent, I'm going to set the record straight; I really don't give half a damn if you were exaggerating/being sarcastic/whatever. Really.

And I wish I liked Nirvana since I was six. My friend (a year older than me) actually was a fan even a year before Kurt died. His mother (who also loves Nirvana) even offered to take him to the Unplugged show. Yeah, really.

no they do not. not only is that my opinion, but it's fact. when kurt decided to blow his brain out, he also decided that he would give courtney everything that was left. legally, it's really no different than if she had been in the band. this is the choice kurt made.


you're aguing with someone about this, but it's not me. i've never said or implied that chris or dave were just a backing band. though at the same time, they were not equal. kurt, chris, and dave all decided which share they would get and agreed that kurt would get the most.

and later in kurts life, he decided that chris and dave didn't fit into the new stuff he wanted to do. and correct me if i'm wrong, but isn't chad playing drums on some of the stuff that is to be put in the box set?


it obviously wasn't just about the money. and the unreleased stuff was in kurt's posession. in his home. the one he shared with courtney. if dave and chris were so concerned about getting this shit released when they recorded it, maybe they would've had copies or, hey, even mentioned these recordings even existed sooner. and what other people on the recordings say they don't want songs that they had part in released?

oh man! someone give this guy a box set! and give his friend one, too. and someone pat his mom on the back for letting her young child listen to songs about rape, abortion, depression, and dying.

wooo hooo yeeeeahhhh hardcorenirvanafan yeeeeaaahhh owwwwww

Courtney repeatedly spoke of the 109 Nirvana tapes she and she alone has. And since she's the only one with these recordings (she's made that very clear) it's obvious that the material Dave and Krist were trying to release before she issued the injunction is not on her "personal collection" of one-of-a-kind Nirvana tapes. As for who owns what they were trying to release, I'd imagine it'd still go under Universal/Sub Pop's original Nirvana contract(s) in which Courtney would get a majority of the artist profits and the rest would go to Dave and Krist.


Yes, that little bit wasn't directed towards you or anyone in particular, aside from perhaps Courtney herself, who was the originator of that comment when this whole snafu occurred. And for the record, when Nevermind was beginning to sell like crazy, Kurt, Dave and Krist got equal amounts of the artist profit. Shortly thereafter (still in the midst of Nevermind Nirvanamania), Courtney coached Kurt into demanding that he get a much higher amount of the profit (75%, was it?), which the band agreed on. Then Kurt demanded that it work retroactively, meaning if Nevermind suddenly stopped selling, Dave and Krist would owe Kurt a lot of money. The two objected this and eventually they settled on the 75%, non-retroactively. These events are very-well chronicled in the definitive Come As You Are bio by Michael Azerrad.


Feel free to draw upon some evidence to prove me wrong on this, since I might be, but I think Kurt's late-Nirvana resentment for Krist and Dave is just as iffy as his wish for a divorce with Courtney at the end of his life. And yes, although no form of tracklisting has been announced at all, from what tidbits Dave has said in the press, it seems like there will be some Chad material on the proposed box set. Of course, he'll be getting royalties for it, just like he received royalties for his work on Incesticide and Wishkah.


Whoa.

i thought it was more like 7.55 cents per song be record sold. karaoke would probably fall under performance rights.

Ok, I looked it up. Currently:

8.50 Cents for songs 5 minutes or less or 1.65 Cents cents per minute or fraction thereof over 5 minutes.

We were both wrong.

m-w.com: noun sexual intercourse with a person who is below the statutory age of consent

Badabing... excellent Ms. Lauren...

Keith was looking it up and our friend Eric thought he said the same thing. The scary thing is, he seemed to know a lot about that particular law...

and the title of the thread is once again relevant.

well played my friend