Former label-mate of the Features...The Katies are back! Check out http://www.thekaties.com/. I'd heard rumors, but now it appears official. Next to the Features, they're the best former Spongebath band, in my humble opinion.
Jack

PS: No offense to Self and the Fl. Oz., you're both great too.

Please allow me to apologize in advance if this should have been put in another forum.

Oh crap! It says new songs???

Wow.


This is really, really exciting. Hope it's not just one reunion show or something...

Also, please don't tempt me into an argument over the best Spongebath band. I could get pretty vehement...

Sorry. I think it makes more sense to have this here rather than the Features section.

I never was a big Katies fan. But good for them.

re: the best Spongebath band? The three bands that defined that label were Self, the Fluid Ounces and the Features. Everyone else was just a hanger-on or an also-ran. Those three had a commitment to quirky, clever pop music, with an emphasis on the pop. They all three went about their business in different ways, but at the end of the day, they all had great songs that were catchy as hell. Consequently, Spongebath - at its peak - was the greatest indie label that has ever existed.

I don't know anything about this band except that one of the dudes from The Katies started a band called Southern Jedi and the Props and he booked shows for Wall Street. So, does this just mean that SJ and the Props are changing their names to The Katies or will it be the original line-up?

Hahaha, no, the Katies are a completely different band. A much better one, to be politically incorrect...(the primary songwriters are different)

"Powerkiss," "Hairclip," "She's My Marijuana," "Shisiedo," "Noggin Poundin'," "Please," "Lucinda," "Happy," "Outerspace"...all excellent songs. If there's one thing the new band should do, it's record a proper version of "Hairclip." The demo is great, but I want a more fleshed out version...


Okay, it's on.

"The three bands that defined the label." You can either be meaning in terms of commercial success or artistic prowess, but either way you slice it, you're wrong: The Katies were far more popular than the Features during SB's day, and at the time, was making (or at the very least, releasing) far better music. The EP was nice, and sure, Thursday's great, but that stuff can't hold a candle to some of the Katies' better songs. I'd perhaps reconsider if the Mahaffey Sessions were properly completed and released, but as the Features' Spongebath discsography stands, they don't have a whole lot to stand by.

While all the Spongebath bands had impressive indie success of some kind or another (The Features selling 3000 EPs, the Fluid Ounces selling about 5000-6000 copies over the course of two albums), Self and the Katies were definitely, without a doubt, the sole "promising" bands of the label from a commercial standpoint. They both had major label record deals, were making songs that a more intelligent public would've caught on to (or, to be more specifc, more intelligent major labels would've pushed harder), and as Matt Mahaffey remembers it, The Katies would have lines forming around the block for their shows during the Spongebath heyday (the same is to be assumed for Self, as they were more popular). In 1998 and 1999, it was their music that had the local scene so excited, and by 2000, it was their major label records' commercial failures that had everyone so sorely disappointed.

In terms of artistic merit, it's an absolute slap in the face to assert that only Self, Fl Oz and the Features were important. Aside from the aforementioned Katies, Call Florence Pow's self-titled debut is THE most amazing record ever recorded by a couple 17 year olds (and one of the best records period), Count Bass-D remains the greatest hip-hop artist of all time (the only one I give a shit about, anyway), the C-60s made great pop punk half a decade before it was a fad (I have yet to secure a copy of their album, but it's hard to deny "Remote Control"), Fleshpaint made several excellent songs ("Seen It On The Radio," "Empty Rooms," "Shelf Life," and I really would love a copy of the unreleased record they did with Matt Mahaffey), The Roaries' two released songs are fucking great (I'd LOVE to hear that record...), and although massively misunderstood, Knodel are an incredibly clever and competent band - if a little too gimmicky, during the Spongebath era. Gumption, while only releasing a 7-inch on Spongebath before being dropped/leaving the label in a huff (depends who you ask, though I believe the latter), have a selection of great songs from their unreleased SB album ("The Way" being the best). Ruby Amanfu's the only ex-SB artist I've heard that I couldn't care less for (although that new single of hers about candy that goes "If I told you too many times," or some such thing, is actually pretty freakin' cool), although I think they were one of the late signings of the label done in desperation for cash flow. The New System I've yet to hear, but their new incarnation, Suburban Tragedy, makes some great rock that just so happens to be commercially viable (they just got a deal with Atlantic or some other big major I think, and have pending "next big thing" status). Their lead singer, Nik Sharp, is also one hell of a nice guy, but I won't get into that.

Rant over. Thanks for listening.

EDIT: I will agree, though, that Spongebath was the greatest record label of all time. So much great music...

(Edited by Jakob Dorof at 6:38 pm on Jul. 9, 2005)

Very well put, JC. I agree right up until...about...here...

Yes, they had a lot going on, and those three bands were/are great, but I've really come to realize that those three were no excuse to keep going on and on about the label. I felt like everything else was pretty average at best.

As for Jakob's comments, when comparing the Features vs. the Katies, I don't think it's fair to compare the two. The Features were always kept on a back burner with Spongebath. They never saw a full release, but I don't think the Katies' full-length (look up Spongebath on eBay and you'll find it the most carried Spongebath title in eBay stores, BTW) holds a candle to the Mississippi Album. JC described them well as hangers-on, which was what they always seemed to me to be. They had the savvy to be signed by Elektra for their album, but it seems like Elektra was signing every band they could in those days (and then dropping them a short while later).

I'm happy the Katies are back together, I guess, but I have no love for Spongebath anymore--just three bands.

Wow. So much to respond to. Jakob, I bow to your decidedly superior knowledge of all things Spongebath. You'd think I would be more knowledgeable than I am since I actually lived through it, but alas, I am not.

However, I still must disagree with you. Here are the Spongebath artists that I actually bought/listened to: Self, FlOz, the Features, the Katies, Call Florence Pow, the C-60s, and Count Bass D. I must plead ignorance about all of the others that you brought up. But I still do feel qualified to make judgements about the label as a whole.

Maybe I should clarify what I meant. I did intend to say that Self, the Ounces and the Features were the three bands that defined Spongebath Records. I stand by that. However, I will admit that to call all of the other artists "hangers-on and also-rans" was inaccurate. For instance, Count Bass D. I was and am a huge fan (although I'm ashamed to admit that I haven't heard any of his post-Spongebath albums), and I think he's one of the most talented rappers around. But let's be honest - he was an anomaly. Spongebath was not a hip-hop label, and to say that his records are representative of the label as a whole would be inaccurate. The same goes for Call Florence Pow and the Katies. While they made some pretty good music, it was not at the heart of what the label was doing. As for the C-60s, they just sucked.

I guess it's really two different debates. One would be, "Which bands best defined Spongebath Records?" And the other would be, "Which was the best Spongebath band?" I've already weighed in on the former. As for the latter, I've gotta go with Self. I've said it before and I'll say it again: Matt Mahaffey is a straight-up genius. I all but worship the ground he walks on (musically speaking).

It's a shame that you haven't listened to Count Bass-D's newer stuff...I've only heard Art For Sale as far as his Spongebath work goes (meaning I haven't heard those two 12-inches they put out later on), but it's clear that he hit his artistic stride (he claims to still not be there yet, but whatever) soon after the label tanked. At the very least, check out some track clips off of the iTunes Store for Dwight Spitz...namely "Jussa Playa," "Aural S(ect)s," "Antemeridian" (which contains a reference to Matt Mahaffey and the Self song "Wide Awake at 7" - you can even hear it in the iTunes clip), "Just Say No To Drugs," "Sanctuary," "Subwoofer," "Truth to Light," "Seven Years," and the title track. Really, CBD's the only serious hip-hop that I can stand.

I know it's hard to say Count defined Spongebath as a label, and that's by no means something that I'm trying to do. He is, however, extremely talented, and he gave the label and heaping dose of diversity...Someone on this board earlier (think back maybe a couple years) said that there were five artists that defined Spongebath: Self, The Katies, Fl Oz, The Features, and Count Bass D. That person (I don't remember the forum name, but it may've been a "Cyrus" or something) also went on to explain that they deserved this title since they were producing the bulk of Spongebath's discography during its heyday (however more amazing I think These Are the Plans... is over any other single record the Features, Fl Oz, or the Katies have ever made, it was released while Spongebath's fanbase and roster began to dwindle, and also because of its relative lack of importance to the label I think that disqualifies them from being considered part of the label's "core"), and since all of these artists were local and friends and collaborated (Self namechecks Count Bass D in "Moronic," The Features interposed the riff from Fl Oz's "Record Stack" into the end of "Smooth," Seth Timbs would sing lines from Self songs within his own live performances ["Better than Aliens" springs to mind], etc), these five groups should be remembered as the label's heart and soul. I agree with him on all accounts, except he did say some disparaging things about the label's other acts that I wouldn't agree with.

As for the best Spongebath band period, I'd have to agree. Self just can't be beat, simply based on the overwhelming mass of their discography (four released albums, an unreleased album, three MP3 albums and more) and the astounding musical success rate of each song they've released. It'd be nice to have something new from them on a glassmastered disc, but that may be asking too much right now...

that's funny, because i don't remember seeing you around during the spongebath days.




i almost spit my vitaminwater all over the computer screen on this one. please tell me where these "lines around the block" were. if for nothing but to get me to stop laughing hysterically.

i like the katies.

but i'm not all THAT excited about the reunion. its whatever.

just call me when Big Black gets back together......

(Edited by ghostflower at 1:26 pm on Jul. 11, 2005)

I'm listening to the MP3s from their EP online right now. It sounds like pretty standard radio-friendly glossy pop-rock to me. They seem to be really good at what they do, but it really does nothing for me. I can easily see how they would have attracted a pretty large following back in the day.

Better Than Ezra was pretty big back then, too.

The board's quote system seems to be fucking with me right now, so I'll just have to italicize. Bear with me on this.

sinasugarsick: "that's funny, because i don't remember seeing you around during the spongebath days."

I hope you're not asserting that I can't make a judgment over whose music I like better simply because I wasn't hip to the scene at the time** (I'm sorry, I was about 9 or 10 and in Philadelphia at the time). And if you're asserting that I can't make a judgment on who was more popular since I "wasn't there," you're actually probably less qualified to make a judgment than I am: I remember you saying on this very board (a post probably at least 2 years old by now...yeah, I do my homework) that the only Spongebath band "worth your time" was the Features. Whereas I, while not being able to have been there due to age and proximity, celebrate the label's entire roster and discography and can guarantee I've read every. freaking. word. written about Spongebath ever published to the Internet (a thank you to archive.org for that). I've conducted interviews with former members of Gumption and The New System (as I've said earlier, Nik Sharp is one hell of a nice guy) and also found information from people who were there that have graciously shared their memories with me. I approach this subject with a passion probably unparalleled by anyone who's ever been a fan of the label (I love every artist who has ever been even remotely associated with the label [excepting perhaps Ruby Amanfu, simply because her music doesn't fit my style. Though I will reiterate that "Sugah" is really great for the type of music that it is] If I could only listen to Spongebath-related music for the rest of my life, I probably wouldn't mind that much). I may not have been there, but I fucking know Spongebath. It's not something I've given all that much thought lately, but given my impressionable-teen obsession with the label of yesteryear, I'm sure I can still recall the lion's share of the details.

(**Also note that I wasn't asserting that I like the Katies as a whole better than the Features. I was simply saying that the music they were making at the time on Spongebath - that is, their self-titled album - was better than what the Features were releasing on Spongebath - that is, their self-titled EP and the Thursday 10 inch. The Features have obviously eclipsed the Katies' meager discography by now, and if I were to choose between the two artists as they stand, I'd obviously have to go with the Features.)

sinasugarsick: i almost spit my vitaminwater all over the computer screen on this one. please tell me where these "lines around the block" were. if for nothing but to get me to stop laughing hysterically.

Ahem. "As Matt Mahaffey remembers it." I'll try to find the particular interview for you, I'm sure I have it somewhere...in the meantime, please remember to stop laughing every now and then to breathe.

I also like the little clarification you made there. It's not just any kind of water. It's vitaminwater.

ghostflower: i'm not all THAT excited about the reunion. its whatever.

So far I suppose it's not that much to be excited about. It's cool, but the sole Katies bootleg I have isn't all that great, so if it's a live-only deal it might be hit or miss...If they start recording new material, the When Breathing Stops (I refuse to call them "Lighter" - WBS is such a better name) stuff is great, but the last Katies demos (I'm talking Brent Rawlings Sessions here) mostly weren't up to par. But if they bring back some of that former magic ("Hairclip," god damn it...), I'm gonna be pumped beyond all belief.

Oh, and sina...I just found the interview (*big collective sigh of relief*). Fascination Street Interview with Matt Mahaffey - August 15, 2004. Go to about 6:02. Or, just take my word for it:

Matt Mahaffey (8/15/04): Oh no, it was definitely packed...I've been to Katies shows there that were just off the hook, you know, people lined up around the block.

And there you have it.

carligula: I'm listening to the MP3s from their EP online right now. It sounds like pretty standard radio-friendly glossy pop-rock to me.

I like how "radio-friendly" has become an insult these days...Sure, the tunes are pretty simple, but it's great, harmonious, anthemic pop-rock. It's unfortunate that only the EP is up since that might not be the best starting point (it was recorded after the band left Spongebath, for one thing) although I still love "Happy" and "Outerspace" (parts of "Please" and "Lucinda" are great, too). If you have iTunes, maybe check out a few tunes from their debut album there (oh, how I love that "ba-ba-baria" part of "She's My Marijuana"...), even though the bio there incorrectly names Gary Welch as lead singer (it's actually Jason Moore). And although it's only a demo, Hair Clip still manages to astound me...really hope they rerecord that one if they choose to return to the studio.

The last I heard they were playing 1 show in August, probably at The Exit/In. That could be old news, and a larger venture may have been undertaken.

I'm reasonably excited, more so for some people I know who got into the band after the fact than myself.

From what I can remember, the live show is MUCH better than any recording (studio or bootleg) that I've heard. Their studio recordings were always too glossy for me, not nearly as balls-out rock as the live show.

For what it is worth, I don't remember ever seeing huge lines at any Katies shows I went to... although they were always pretty crowded inside.

There's a fine line between poppy and overproduced, my friend. In terms you can relate to: Weezer (1994) is a pop masterpiece full of highly infectious, listenable, simple songs while Weezer (2001) is what happens when good pop songs are overproduced.

Green had good pop songs? I liked "Hash Pipe," "Photograph" (especially "Photograph"...), and "Island in the Sun," but the rest was so bland and monotone...the production definitely has a lot to do with that, but so does Rivers' songwriting. Then again, as I've said before, I think a Weezer Greatest Hits collection (assuming those greatest hits happened to be the songs I like ) would be better than any one record of theirs (except maybe Pinkerton, just because that's an album, as opposed to 10 or 12 songs thrown together and called an "album"). I can understand how so many people love Blue and how it'll be remembered as one of the better rock records of the 90s, but it's still not something I listen too that much.

Anyhow, I understand the comparison you're making. And perhaps you're right: maybe the Katies' recordings always wound up being one or the other (studio polish out the wazoo like The Katies and untitled EP, completely raw - at times seemingly unfinished - demos such as Brian Carter Vol. 2 and Brent Rawlings) as opposed to a proper mix of live energy and studio refinement. But on songs like "Powerkiss," "She's My Marijuana," and "Shisiedo," I think the production really works...and remember, these songs were supposed to be big rock radio hits, so its appropriate that they are produced as accessibly as possible. To make my own comparison by way of Nirvana: lots of people say Nevermind is overproduced, but it works wonderfully with songs...although that kind of production would completely be at odds with In Utero (and vice versa: Nevermind would probably sound lesser with Albini at the boards). Just because something sounds "glossy" doesn't mean it's "overproduced." I'm listening to "Shisiedo" right now...the way those vocal harmonies just wash over Moore's foreground croon at 4:14, the way that glimmering guitar hits in at 4:29...man. That's some damn fine production, if you ask me...

Each to his own, I suppose.

it's disconcerting to see my name in HUGE LETTERS every time i check the board. despite my knowledge of what it's truly about, i'm hoping the thread topic is "KATIE IS AWESOME" or something to that extent. ok, back into hiding.

yours truly,
katie "cooler than the katies" k

KATIE IS BACK!!!! yay!

I was there at least a couple of times when the line was "around the block" for The Katies. Or at least a really, really long line (with people already lining up when it was sunny outside - for like a 9:30 show). One was at the Exit/In for the CD release show (the live show which is available at thekaties.com for download). I got there about 7:00 and there was already a very long line stretching down past TGI Fridays or whatever restaurant that was.

Second that I remember was Exit/In again for another show a few months later, not down the block but a line out the door nonetheless.

At least once at The Boro there was quite a line stretching quite a ways, but Self was also playing (but this was at the height of The Katies popularity as well, right after the CD release).

Of course I also saw Self & The Katies & Fl Oz and everybody else at places like 12th & Porter and 3rd & Lindsley where I got there early and strolled right in. So I don't know what it all means! But I guess what I am saying is it is true that The Katies and Spongebath showcase showshad some really long lines - the likes of which are rarely seen these days in Nashville (one of which was The Features triumphant return to Exit/In a few months ago).

BUT ANYWAYS - hey The Katies are my favorite band of all time, but arguing about who the best Spongebath band was isn't going to get anywhere - everyone has their own opinion! And just for the record the Spongebath release I listen to most after The Katies is The Features EP.

Finally, anyone who wants to check out some of The Katies please visit the website and hit up the downloads - almost 50 free songs! and if new songs materialize then at least some of the songs up right now will have to go to make room.......The Katies dot com

But if my memory serves me correctly, wasn't that also the Self CD release show for Breakfast With Girls? I think The Katies and BWG shared an album release show at the Exit/In. I was there. Am I wrong?

P.S. On the topic of Weezer, Green's problem was not bad/over-production, it was bad songwriting. Which is the same problem that every Weezer album since Pinkerton has had.

(Edited by jamiecarroll at 1:29 am on Jul. 12, 2005)

i honestly cant remember but from what I can it was just for the katies. but i have been wrong before! i know the katies were getting interviewed out front for muchmusic or something like that. and i dont remember BWG being for sale at the show but it was 6 years ago almost to the day.

(Edited by everdave at 1:03 am on Jul. 12, 2005)

Then yes, that was definitely the same one as the Self album release, because the date of that one was July 12, 1999.

That must've been one hell of a show.

Yes, they shared the same CD release show.

I think of the Katies as "also ran" in the Spongebath era because, much like Count Bass D, their music was away from the focus of the label's, which was more on straight poppy stuff than the Zeppelin-esque classic rock persona that they kind of carried with their music.

no, you claiming that the katies were more popular than the features back in the day has nothing to do with which band you like(d) better. DUH


you've got to be fucking kidding me, dude. i'm "less qualified" because i said the only spongebath band worth my time was the features. whaaaa? no really, explain.

did you also read years ago where i wrote about being locked in a room with a member of the katies and a member of the fl oz and being forced to listen to their music and admitt that i liked it...which i never did?
i partied along side of them. i went to all those shows, i can't count how many times i'd seen the katies or self or fl. oz. to name a few. i don't recall a single features show from those days that they didn't play with at least two other spongebath bands. i can't recall any spongebath band that didn't play with at least 2 other spongebath bands.

so, if you're even thinking that i can't make a judgement on who was more popular than who because i prefer the features then uh uh. you can toss that notion out with the latest bubblegum complex cd.




this means nothing


read jc's last posts in this thread.

i rest my case.

if you and mahaffey seriously think that people "lined up around the block" for the katies then you are both delusional.

Hence me giving you the option of two replies to choose from, dependent on what you actually meant. I was unsure, so I simply gave a response for either interpretation. (Duh.)


Sure. In drawing a conclusion from your statement that the only Spongebath band "worth your time" was the Features, I assumed that you more or less made some effort or another to spend as little time as possible listening to and/or finding out about the roster's other acts, and, presumably, the label as a whole - you're only interested in one of the label's bands, so why waste any time with the others, correct? I felt this was a logical conclusion to draw as one generally assumes a person doesn't "waste time" listening to bands he/she doesn't like, let alone read up on them. I did not know that you actively wasted time going to shows of bands you hated; if you really just couldn't stand them that much, why not just leave after the Features played? They usually played shows on the earlier side of the bill in those days (one notable exception I remember being the Halloween Bashathon of 1998, where they actually played last for some reason). I know that if I hate a band - several of them, even - that I wouldn't subject myself to the repeated sonic trauma of their live shows. But perhaps I made a slight oversight there.

However, even if you withstood their live performances, one would naturally assume - especially after having to hear their music against your own will on such a regular basis - that you wouldn't be all too eager to memorize related facts and tidbits about the bands in question. You seem to hold some level of abhorrence in regards to any Spongebath artist excepting only the Features, whereas I celebrate the label's entire discography, and feel that I have rather exhaustively researched the topic as much as one could possibly do so, given my location and age. You were there, and that's great for you, but I really can't explain how much I would have liked to have been there (being there now would be nice, too, but that's irrelevant to the discussion at hand). Rubbing it in my face doesn't do much to prove your point, or do anyone any good for that matter.


No, but that sounds like an interesting story...please feel free to retell it sometime, if you are so inclined.


I don't know what compelled you to drag my label into this discussion, let alone use it as an insult (talk about a left field comment), but if you'd like to go there I wouldn't mind. I'm personally pretty fucking proud that I've been running a record label ever since I was 15, so if you'd like to somehow attack me on that front I'd be interested to see how you'd go about it. Feel free to PM or email (jakob.dorof@gmail.com) if you ever have the urge; personally, I'd like to keep this thread about Spongebath.


Well, if you say so...


Now this means nothing. I can just as easily say "Listen to Matt Mahaffey's interview, linked in this thread. I rest my case." That's arbitrarily valuing what one person says over another, and really, I feel that Matt Mahaffey is a pretty knowledgeable source on all things Spongebath, wouldn't you? I mean, he wasn't just there (since living in Murfreesboro/Nashville at the time seems to qualify you as something of a Spongebath expert), he was it. But hey, if you'd like to (again) arbitrarily declare him "delusional," then by all means go ahead. Perhaps he was embellishing, perhaps he was using a figure of speech. It's not my call to make, I was simply quoting him. Take from it what you will.

I was simply refuting what everdave gave as an example of a Katies show where people were lined up around the block. I feel more than certain that the lion's share of those people were lined up to see Self, not the Katies. I was just pointing out that that one show was a flawed example. I was not speaking to the truth or falsehood of Mr. Mahaffey's claim in general.

I'm really glad to see old spongebath bands make comebacks. Hopefully Self will pull through as well.

I've been listening to the Katies' self-titled a lot recently, and really only gave it a completely fair chance this past week or so. And as it turns out, the songs I mentioned before (more or less the first half of the disc) aren't the only great songs on here; they're all magnificent (although I've still yet to catch on to "Miss Melodrama"...). It's a really, really great album, and calling yourself a fan of Tennessee music without owning a copy is about as blasphemous as not having a copy of Breakfast With Girls. Everyone needs to go to the reunion show (and of course, bonus points for the beyond-good cause...).

MUMBLER

how pathetic of you to sit around and over analyze and make up retarded assumptions and "draw conclusion" about me now and 10 years ago and the years in between. all over the fact that i don't like bands that you are apparently scarily obsessed with. and to again try to discredit me because i didn't "read up" on shit when i was right there. that's like saying i don't know myself because i haven't read my own (auto)biography.



once again

and correct me if i'm wrong, but hadn't matt already moved to california during the katies *cough* "prime."

many of you - other than everdave and jc - were around during this time and if i'm over looking the katies huge fame with shows where fans lined up around the block, then please - by all means- prove me wrong.

??????????

Okay.


It's certainly not a conscious thing, where I sit down and say "Oh, a new reply! Let's analyze!" It's something that just clicks in your head (or at least should) and takes zero time to "get" at all, but when forced to explain (thanks for that, by the way) maybe it does sound a little odd. Or maybe I'm just no good at explaining. Fuck if I care.


The bands generally think it to be kind of flattering, actually. I'll let you know if any of them ever recoil in horror upon finding out that I like their music, though. I promise.


I don't suppose you were around for every Katies show ever, now were you? I mean, you don't even fucking like them! That's just loopy. But if you insist...

And finally:


As I've said before, I'm merely quoting Matt Mahaffey. Whether or not that actually means that there was once a physical line of excited fans winding around the block to get into a show with a bill that the Katies were on, or if it was just a figure of speech, I don't know. As you yourself have kindly pointed out oh so many times now, I wasn't there - I just hear Mr. Mahaffey reminisce a little about the old days, and, you know, take his fucking word for it. If you would like to track him down and find out once and for all (!) what exactly he meant, by all means go ahead.

Anyway, as if to make it painfully obvious just how retarded this whole discussion is, this little give-and-take began because you seemed to have some big problem with one little half-sentence I used in an irrelevant post about how the Katies were more popular than the Features in Spongebath's time. I've got time to burn, seeing how I'm in high school and on summer break and not doing anything for once, but I assume you've got bigger fish to fry than to argue about some petty rock'n'roll shit with a 17 year old stranger living in god damn Pennsylvania of all places (right?). So I'll do the mature thing and call it quits here. I've defended my little half-sentence enough, I think, and if you still have a problem with it, then so be it. Then again, judging by how many simply awful Katies shows you've attended, you don't seem to mind wasting time, so if you'd like to discuss the matter further, try Matt Mahaffey. He's the one who said it after all, and I'm sure he'd just love to talk to you about it. As for me, I'm not even gonna waste another fifteen minutes of my summer break (jesus christ, soooo much time...) nit-picking about this shit. You can reply if you want, but I'll personally ignore it.


And yes, YDDD. Blasphemy.

Jesus, you two... get a fucking room!

I think it is blasphemy to say GD and JC when getting upset, but I am staying out of this.

i've just been pullin chains since my first couple of posts,

lighten up, brotha

I'm pretty sure that's a Charlie and the Chocolate Factory reference. Willy Wonka used it as a comeback on Mike TV when he realized he was severly outclassed.

Discussion Question: If De Novo Dahl had been around in '97 - '99, would they have been a good Spongebath band (as defined above)? If so, how would they rank among the Spongebath elite? Better than Self? Not as good as Fl. Oz.?

Was Harmonium together at that time? Just curious.

Yes, but if memory serves me correctly, Harmonium were quite different from De Novo Dahl. More like Aireline.

As far as whether DND would have made a good Spongebath band, I'm not sure. DND are, whether you like it or not, not easily categorized. They're all over the place in terms of genre, and they have four different lead vocalists. In short, they don't really have "a sound." I happen to think that's one of the things that makes them so awesome, but some people I know think it's their Achilles heel. If we look at the great Spongebath bands, they each had a distinct sound, and pretty much stuck to that sound. This has become somewhat less true through the years when it comes to Self, but back in the day, even they operated within a fairly specific set of parameters. I'm not sure that a band as diverse and unpredictable as the Dahl would have fit the Spongebath mold.

Wow, that's a good call...whereas one could only safely categorize DND with a term as vague as "rock" or "alternative," each Spongebath band could not only be given an adequate labeling as a genre, but right down to the subgenre, too. The Katies were classic rock, the Fl Oz were piano pop, CBD was hip-hop, the Features were new wave, and hell, you could've even gotten away with calling Self grunge at the time of Subliminal Plastic Motives.

So yeah, I wouldn't say DND could've fit in with the Spongebath crowd. Heck, I can't think of one modern MidTN band that could...as JC said, Spongebath had very defined parameters in terms of what each of their bands sounded like and the feel of the overall label (which began to fall apart in the label's later years, when Rick started signing a bunch of random artists in a last ditch effort to get an act that connected with a larger audience).

I find this statement very interesting. I've always thought of De Novo Dahl as the epitome of pop music.

My musical retardation is well documented on this message board, and I'll be the first to admit that I have a hard time classifing music into genres. I can't tell the difference between rock and pop so I'm completely lost when it comes to the sub-genres (fuzz pop, power pop, blow pop, etc.)

In my limited understanding, though, I've always thought of DND's music as the very essence of pop. If someone asked me what pop music is, I'd play Cats & Kittens for them.

So help me out here. If DND isn't pop, who is? Would you consider Spongebath-era Fl. Oz. to be more "popish" than modern-day DND?

There's definitely a lot of gray when it comes to distinguishing between pop and rock music. I would consider pure pop music to be artists like Britney Spears and N*SYNC. Rock music would be the Foo Fighters and Weezer. Pop music is melodic and catchy above all else. Rock may also be melodic and catchy, but often is more powerful and more defined by the electric guitar. But there is a lot of overlap. Like what would you call "Since You've Been Gone"? How about a song like "Pattycake" by Self? The easiest way to break it down is to make a category called "Pop/Rock," and then nearly everything in question fits into that. But then even within that, like you said, there are a lot of sub-genres.

You know what I hate? Prog.

Or is that called post-rock now?



Give me melody any day.

I think maybe the hardest Self song to categorize would be "Meg Ryan"...which makes Dreamworks a load of retards for making it the first single from BWG. It's not exactly pop, it's certainly not rock, and you can hear elements of it in there but it definitely isn't hiphop, either...so what radio station would play it?

I guess a lot of DND's music can be defined as pop, but I wouldn't even know what to call certain songs (such as "Jeffrey"), let alone the vast majority of Kittens.

While this is true, and Meg Ryan wasn't a great choice, there really wasn't a single on BWG.


(Edited by YaDaDaDa at 5:27 am on Aug. 19, 2005)

Not a conscious single, at least. "Suzy Q Sailaway" would've been the best shot (you'd have thought Dreamworks would've agreed as if it weren't for them, that song would be on Giz, not BWG, but apparently not...). Or maybe "It All Comes Out...," if it were 1992 and that opening sample wasn't so damn annoying (the one part of the album that I really don't like).

OK, so next question: When you're putting music into genres, at what level do you categorize it? By song? By album? By artist?

As an example, consider R.E.M. (the one band about which I could even begin to speak intelligently). I've always considered them a "rock" band, and I think most folks would agree with that. However, they've released a couple of songs ("Don't Go Back to Rockville" and "Country Feedback") that have a definite country sound. Does that mean that for those 541 seconds, "America's Greatest Rock Band" was actually a country band?

Also, their last three albums have moved away from the electric guitar/electric bass/drum kit combination that seems essential to rock and taken on more of an electronic sound. Does this mean that R.E.M. has become a pop band?

Perhaps my problem is that I try to see everything in absolutes and place everything into neat, well-defined categories. Music is probably too organic for that.

Unltimately, almost all categorization is flawed.

I think it was Michael Stipe that said, "Labels are for canned foods."