So the Pistons just annihilated the Lakers for the third consecutive game and are the new NBA champs. Karl Malone and Gary Payton can both kiss my ass. Finally, they can stop bitching and complaining now that it's over. They got what they deserved by selling their souls to LA for a ring...and then losing in the finals. By the way, I'm not even a Pistons fan. I'm just glad the Lakers lost and that the Eastern Conference is now somewhat evenly matched with the West.

...and I now realize that this topic probably belongs in the miscellaneous section...oh well.

Fuck the NBA.

Fuck sports.

fuck the lakers AND the nba!

I'll second that. For someone who hates the NBA and doesn't care about pro basketball in the least, I sure do hate the Lakers an awful lot.

Will

Craig, you're a bastard for having to work last night. I was going to see if you wanted to watch the game and drink beers. Then I somehow ended up missing the fourth quarter over at your place - minus you, i mean. for the record, Ben Wallace is my MVP.

(Edited by damon at 7:55 am on Jun. 16, 2004)

...And may I also state that the Lakers could have won this series too, if they'd actually wanted it. I've never seen a team play with less emotion in the finals. Between Shaq and Kobe, somebody should have been able to pull of a 40 or 50 point game - especially knowing that they were on the brink.

ben wallace gets my vote for most valuable HAIR!

(Edited by andrewjsmithson at 9:04 am on Jun. 16, 2004)

My born and bred detroit wife just overturned our car and burned it... ugggg

ARGHH! Somebody pull him off the air! INSENSITIVE!

i would just like to agree with the anti-nba and anti-lakers sentiments.

I actually enjoyed watching the finals this year. The Pistons were a fun team to watch, I thought, and the anti-Laker sentiment made for a good storyline. I would have liked to see it last another game.

You don't realize just how bad today's NBA is until you happen upon some of those reruns of old NBA games from the 80s and early 90s on ESPN Classic.

I'm not saying that I agree with Larry Bird at all, becuase I really don't. I believe about sports the same as I believe about the work world - in any given situation, the best man should get the job, regardless of race. No one should get special treatment, whether that be classic white man's racism or this new form of racism that we call affirmative action. So I don't believe that the NBA needs more white players. If there are 200 spots on NBA teams and the 200 best players are black, let it be that way.

I don't think that Larry was calling for different treatment of white players or anything of that nature.

I agree, however, that the NBA is nothing now compared to what I grew up watching.

(Edited by damon at 10:37 am on Jun. 16, 2004)

No, but he said that the NBA would be better off if they had more white players. You can find the quotes here.

i don't think larry legend said anything wrong, and i agree with most of it...personally i couldn't care less what race the players are, though. they just don't play hard, the way the game is meant to be played--consequently, i'd rather stab my eyes out with a pickaxe than sit through one of the games. if we had a team in nashville my feelings would probably change somewhat, but as of now it just puts the media focus squarely on the east coast/west coast...i resent that. just as america is not the world, the east/west coast is not america. jc, you are right, 100%. the level of play was once just so much better. now it's either shoot a 3 or take it to the rack...i'll take college ball any day of the week. i'm with dicky v.

As far as ratings are concerned, the NBA would be better off if there were more white players. I know a lot of people who percieve the league as being overly-thuggish and such, which is just another way of saying too black. While I don't agree with that, I can see how a white star of Larry Bird's caliber could draw some fans that might otherwise be reluctant to watch games.

Let me be clear in saying that I don't think that the dumbing down of the NBA has had anything to do with the extinction of the white superstar.

I honestly think that Michael Jordan is to blame. Don't get me wrong, I love MJ. He was greatest basketball player of all time. But a generation of kids grew up watching him and wanting to be him. The problem is that these kids have focused in on one aspect of his game, which was creating with the basketball, going one-on-one from the top of the key. It's understandable that that's what people focus on because that's what's on the highlight films and Sportscenter. People forget that Jordan was one hell of a defensive player. He was also great at creating for his teammates. He made the other guys on his team better. And while we're talking about the other guys on his team, let me tell you another thing about kids idolozing Jordan - nobody wants to be Bill Cartwright or Scottie Pippen or BJ Armstrong or Horace Grant or John Paxon. A great team is a team where people know their roles. And I think that's a big part of why the Pistons have had success. Five guys standing around waiting for the ball so they can go one-on-one and make Sportscenter is...well, that's what today's NBA is, for the most part, and that's why I don't enjoy it.

Another thing that I regretably admit has been bad for basketball on all levels is the 3-point line. You don't see guys like Larry Bird or Pete Maravich anymore who are great mid-range shooters. It's all either take it to the hoop or shoot it from 20 feet away. It's not really a shooter's game anymore.

I was in Atlanta...watching....some sports network with Chris, and they said something on there about the Lakers being "America's Team" kind of like the Yankees were back in the olden days. I guess that sentiment is not reflected here.

Maybe in that they are hated by a lot of people the way the Yanks are.

And I agree with your thoughts on MJ's lasting impression on the game, JC. ESPN is to blame as well as Jordan, I think.

This statement might not go over well on this board.

I don't understand all the anti-NBA sentiment these days. Sure, the level of play isn't quite as good as it used to be, but that is mostly due to the changes in the rules that have allowed zone defense, and it is certainly way better than the level of play in college basketball. I hate watching college basketball because they usually just pass the ball around for 35 seconds and settle for a three, and the 3-point line is way too close, making this an acceptable strategy. Also, they are terrible ball-handlers and for the most part have no postup game, both of which become obvious when they get to the NBA and average 5 turnovers per game their rookie season. And, with the exception of the Orlando Magic, the NBA is not just one-on-one basketball. Watch any of the good teams, like the Pistons, Spurs, Kings, Wolves, Pacers, Nets. They all play a balanced team game. Also, I think the players work a lot harder than you all give them credit for...82 games (plus possibly 20-something playoff games) is a long season--they have to pace themselves a little bit, just like in every other professional sport.

Pace themselves? Hell, half of them were walking up the court in the Championships. The NBA is full of lazy, me me me, players who as JC put it so well, only want to dunk or shoot the three. I can count on one hand the amount of 15 ft jumpers taken in that game last night. The most astonishing thing is the way a player will back up 8 ft to launch a three. Drives me nuts.

Sure, the NHL ramps up during the playoffs, but you don't see players half ass skating up the ice in transition. AND THEY GET HIT FOR 82 GAMES!!! The NBA's product is obsolutely weak, and its going to get weaker as the influx of younger players enter the league.

I went to a friend's kid's b-ball game this past winter(8 year olds) and there were these kids out there trying to dribble between their legs behind their backs, and would not hustle back on defense. It was appalling to say the least. Absolutely no fundamentals.

As far as college ball, I enjoy it much more than the NBA, but it is quickly disintigrating into the same crap. At least coach's like Bob Knight, Coach K, and Lute Olsen are still around to squash that crap. But I'm afraid as the old guard retires the new coach's will encourage that style of play, and we'll be left with an even more watered down mini-NBA.

well, it sucks. that's only part of the problem. don't try to sell me that they play hard, it's utter bollocks, and a pretty indefensible position...i've grown up on a steady diet of the three major sports, i know what it looks like when a player leaves it all out on the court. at the end of the day, an nba player is going home to water his moneytrees, win or lose. the college game is better, if only because of the effort they exhibit...there are a few nba players that i like to watch--ron artest, because he goes all out and, let's face it, he's a nutter...i like the way lebron plays, unselfish, as much of a brilliant passer as anything else. for the game of basketball as a whole, i would like to see the jump-shot return as the art form it once was...it's not going to happen, though--and the glory days of the nba are over as far as i'm concerned. i'm pretty sure this is a widespread feeling among sports fans, atleast the ones who can remember magic and kareem, larry legend and the heyday of mj.

(Edited by andrewjsmithson at 4:34 pm on Jun. 16, 2004)

I like college basketball because they play like they mean it. Like Andrew said, they leave it all out on the floor. I'll settle for a lower level of talent to be able to watch guys who actually give a shit about the outcome of a regular season game. There is absolutely zero heart in the NBA. Period. I mean, listen to Shaq in any postgame interview. That about sums it up.

Yes, they do pass it around for 35 seconds in college. You say that like it's a bad thing. I love a good motion offense. And I guess there are some NBA teams that run motion offenses - let's see, there's the Kings, and I suppose the Pistons, and...yeah, I can't think of any others. Definitely NOT the Spurs, the Pacers or the T-Wolves.

Also, the NBA season is waaaaaay too long. They should be ending the regular season in mid-March. When we get to June, it's time for baseball.

(Edited by jamiecarroll at 10:14 pm on Jun. 16, 2004)

if i may,

craig do you REALLY prefer the NBA to the college game? if so, wow, man you are one rare breed. but hey different strokes. personally i find the NBA to be unwatchable. would (literally) rather watch martha stewart or a soap opera or something. if competition is an essential element of sport, than you could argue (as i have for years) that the NBA is not a sport but ENTERTAINMENT, due to the lack of competitive spirit amongst and between players. One could argue that the volatile and aggressive acts players commit on each other (and against officials) proves that they are competitive and care about the outcome of the game, but i feel that fights and invectives are reflective of the leaugue's culture that invites hyper masculine posturing and braggadocio.

And for the record, i don't feel that race has anything to do with it. I think Larry Bird is off his fucking rocker. embarrased when guarded by a white guy? come on, how fucking prejudiced is that? While i think that the spirit of Bird and Magic's discussion is a step in the right direction (an open, blunt dialogue on race) it only illustrates the downside of such a discussion: it ended up proving that this society still sees everything in, well, black and white.

The fact of the matter is that the NBA's unwatchableness is a development of the past 15 years. I find it hard to believe that whites have lost interest in the game because its dominated by african americans. african americans have dominated since the late 60's/early 70's (pretty volatile times in terms of race relations) and people loved it back then and all the way up to the early to mid 90's. So why would people lose interest now? gee, maybe its because theres more money in it now than there was back then, and the players are playing for the glamour and money, not the sport...in other words, it turned into WWF as opposed to the highest level of COMPETITION in basketball.

I was trying so hard to decide which post to quote and I decided that I couldn't. I agree with far too many of you about what has been said. jamie, you especially have hit the nail on the head.

For me, it breaks down like this: Basketball was once my favorite sport to watch (now World Cup Soccer followed closely by Football). I can't watch it anymore. What I miss is the first Dream Team. The '92 Olympics. Michael Jordan, Magic Johnson, Larry Bird, Charles Barkley, Karl Malone, Chris Mullen, John Stockton, David Robinson, Scottie Pippen, Patrick Ewing, etc. These were team players. Sure, alot of them were egotistical superstars too, but as jc pointed out, they knew how to contribute to their teams and they could pull back into D. You look at Kobe or Iverson, or someone like that, and it is hard not to imagine the league as "thugish." Not because the players are black, but because they're big and they don't play for a team. The old generation also always seemed like fair enough role models for a kid to have; granted, MJ, Magic, Barkley, and the rest didn't have spotless records, but they were at least decent sportsmen and maintained a good positive image. The Jordan/Bird/Barkley McDonald's commercials with the shootout for a Big Mac, for example: these were people you could relate to, despite being people who were unattainably good at the game. They also (Barkley especially in this example) didn't take themselves too seriously. And that was refreshing. I can't imagine the three players currently in the league that would be used to remake said commercial. It just wouldn't happen, and while it seems like a shallow distinction to make in criticizing the state of the league, I feel like the problems one would run into in remaking that commercial are the problems with the league right now. Basketball isn't fun in the NBA anymore, and that's a damn shame.

I'd also like to state right now that I'm upset about what has happened to Grant Hill, because I always thought he was a stand-up guy.

That's me,

Will

I don't doubt it. Understand, though, that it isn't my opinion, but one commonly held by a lot of people, including my co-workers who we will collectively call "Joe Warehouse." A lot of these guys were cool with the NBA in the past, despite any preconcieved racial notions that they might have had. Now it's a different story. The actions of people like Allen Iverson (associating with gang members) and Latrell Sprewell (choking and then chasing former coach PJ Carlisimo with a 2'x4') have spilled over onto the rest of the league, causing a lot of would be fans to become suspicious of corn rows, tattoos and the sort. You and I may be able to separate race and behavior in considering the state of the league, but a lot of people just aren't capable of doing so.

I also agree with Wiyum, in that I lost interest as players of my youth began to retire. It's different seeing guys younger than me come out of high school and play pro ball.

You're right on, damon. I think that the proliferation of hip-hop culture has been a factor as well, both for players and for would be fans. Today's NBA stars are just not as charismatic or likable as the stars from 10 to 20 years ago. But for a generation of players raised on gangsta rap, smiling equals weakness and fun is for children. The goal is to be hard and to talk hard and to look hard at all times. It's like everyone in the league is trying to be one of the '89 Pistons. And I think alot of sports fans just can't get behind that.

Good call. I wish I had the money to buy the Euro 2004 pay per view package right now. I would be glued to the tv.

My roomate John said the same thing.

Any other soccer fans out there interested in buying a few games of this at my place?

How much are the individual matches?

*after making use of a resource called the internet, I now know that single matches are $24.95.

(Edited by damon at 12:57 pm on Jun. 17, 2004)

Soccer goes into the same category as hockey for me. I've tried and tried, but I just can't get into it.

The sports that I am consistently interested in are college basketball, pro football, college football, and major league baseball. Oh yeah, and strong-man competitions.

I think alot of what people like has to do with what they grew up watching and/or playing. That would maybe explain why hockey is so much more popular up north. And who knows - maybe as a result of the Predators, the next generation of Nashvillians will grow up to be as into hockey as previous generations have been into football.

I got into soccer by necessity. One of my friends back home would always talk about the English Premiere Leage, or even cooler, ze Bundesliga, and I started following so I would have something to talk about. Since then I've been hooked.

oops. we shouldn't box soccer up with freaking ice hockey, should we? there's something about soccer that's just fascinating to me--the skills on display are truly impressive, whereas there's nothing about hockey that looks difficult except perhaps the fighting...
i see the comparison, though, in the low scoring and whatnot. c'mon, though, there's just something a little too, well, canadian, about hockey, isn't there...
i don't think having the preds here will influence me one way or another--when they were making their playoff run, i still couldn't be bothered to sit through five minutes of the game...if there's a soccer match on telly, i'm all over it, even if i don't know the teams--as is often the case.
i'm with you on the rest--i'll watch any college basketball game, any kind of football except that arena crap, and most any pro baseball game. not sure about those strong-man competitions, though...

(Edited by andrewjsmithson at 10:15 am on Jun. 18, 2004)

I heard they're showing some of the Euro 2004 soccer tournament games at Two Doors Down on Demonbreun (between I40 and the circle with the naked staues).

Regarding the state of NBA basketball, I stand by my opinion. I don't know how many of you watch NBA games on a regular basis, but I do, and I think that makes me a fair judge of how hard they play. I agree that Shaq is a retard in post-game interviews and that a lot of players have a lot of problems off the court, but that has nothing to do with how hard they play. I think that just watching the highlights and listening to what the sportswriters have to say will give you a very skewed perspective (not that I am accusing any of you of this, but it is the basis of many opinions). College Basketball? -- sure, they try really hard and it looks all intense and shit when the coaches yell at the players and throw shit at them, but the fact is...they're just not as good. To me, the most important factor is the skill level, so I guess that is why I like the NBA more. Also, I grew up in a city with a team, so that probably has something to do with it.

that's the only thing you stated i will agree with.

I'm glad we can agree on something

I don't think anyone is denying that individual skill level is higher. But watching a team sport when there is no "team," only individuals competing with their teammates for attention is simply no fun. At least not for me. Everything else I've said I also believe, but the game simply isn't fun to watch anymore because it isn't a team sport.

I don't read sportswriters or watch highlights. I avoid sports journalism entirely.

Will

...not to mention, washed the car of one Dale Davis!

i agree. shit like the and 1 mix tapes pretty much glorifies the aspects of basketball that have left the NBA in the shitbin.

sports journalism is repetitive and boring, but PTI is one of the best shows on television.

Are you kidding? That's the best thing to happen to basketball since the Harlem Globetrotters! Okay, not really, but it's damn entertaining.

i love PTI--it is easily the best sports show on television. i'm still in withdrawal from mr. tony leaving his radio show. it was the best.

Have you ever tried to just STAND UP on ice?

I enjoy watching hockey and soccer, but of the two I prefer hockey. The action is much more fast paced, there are a lot more scoring chances per period, and when a hockey player gets hit, they don't fall down and roll around like a weenie, they get up and kick someone's ass.

Although the falling down and rolling around thing is pretty entertaining. It's a big reason why I like to watch Banamex play on Univision on Sundays.

yes. i went ice-skating years ago, and i remember marveling at how easy it was...like roller-skating except colder. i fully expected to be falling down the whole time, but i didn't fall much at all. i'll maintain that the hardest thing about ice hockey, without having ever played it, would have to be the fighting...it's the most interesting part of it, too. if i just wanted to watch people fight, i'd watch boxing, or get on this messageboard and express some sort of opinion.
hey, some people like hockey...and that's ok. i don't care for it, but the list of things i like is a very short one, indeed.

Watch yer mouth, son.

The only problem with PTI is that Michael and Tony are seldom found in the same place come show time. I don't mind guest hosts, but it isn't the same.

"So the other week I went to a fight and a hockey game broke out..."

In all seriousness, I love Hockey. But I love that joke too.

Will

Yeah, so speaking of the NBA sucking, how 'bout 'ol team U.S.A.? I'm embarassed. I mean, how many people live in Puerto Rico? Maybe like 5 million? Yet they can assemble a better basketball team than the U.S.?!! And I don't want to hear it about how "the rest of the world has gotten better" - this is PUERTO RICO we're talking about here, not Lithuania or Spain. What a joke.

i just think it's funny. no-one will be able to convince me that the nba is anything other than a farce now. i mean, yeah, puerto rico...pfftt...what a joke. well, atleast the puerto ricans understand that basketball is a team game. they probably don't have any players who jack up 25 shots a game, either.

I was thinking about it, and I decided that the current trend of high school players skipping college has left us with the equivalent of a pre-dream team olympic squad. The average player is 23 years old or something, and that's only because Duncan and Iverson are a little older. Developmentally they just aren't there. It also wouldn't hurt if a couple of them were shooters.

They just lost because they know they don't have to win every game to get to the next round. Doing the bare minimum to end up at the top-- that's the American way. USA! USA! USA!

Looks like they eeked out a win over Greece today. If they just feed Duncan in the post and get back on D, they will have no problem winning out. My thoughts.

USA 102, Spain 94. I love it! Fuck Spain and their crybaby coach! Take your loss like a man, you bitch.