About the only thing we can hope for now is that all the idiots get everything they deserve and are asking for. They want four more years of war? I hope they get every fucking bit of it.

As recently as this past Saturday, I would shake my head and feel pain and sorrow everytime I heard about more deaths in Iraq. 8 more Marines dead? That's 8 more people none of us will ever get to meet. Pitiful.

But now, I don't really care. Let 'em die. Whatever it takes to get this country to finally learn its lesson. I can't spend any more time and energy worrying and mourning about things that are out of my control and are apparently inevitable. Obviously, I hope nothing drastic happens to the "innocent" people here, like 9/11, because that will only strengthen the numbers of the Nazi-like brainwashed zombies. But at this point, it looks like the only way people are going to wake up is if the military continues to get its ass kicked in Iraq, and the whole thing continues to turn into Vietnam 2.0. Sad, but true.

I just can't spend the energy to care anymore. Wake me up when evolution has thinned out this country a little bit more.

I better stop before the FBI comes and arrests me for treason under the patriot act.

i'm waiting on the reaction of some of my female conservative friends when they overturn Roe v. Wade.

Look forward to the Judicial, Legislative and Executive branches all under one party.

At least all the wrong bills will be passed more smoothly, right?

(Edited by carligula at 2:51 pm on Nov. 3, 2004)

I read in the news today that exit polls showed southern voters largely ranked "moral issues" as their reasons for voting for Bush. Iraq was less important and domestic issues like health care were far, far less important. Gay marriage vs. HEALTH INSURANCE people!! I actually heard a man downtown today say he's so glad this country will finally be led by values. I wish the south could fucking secede and rock on with its "values." I don't know what the fuck I was thinking leaving Illinois. I want to be one of Obama's constituents.

(Edited by etcetera at 3:37 pm on Nov. 3, 2004)

I already wrote something but I'm ticked off. No stiff in a fucking suit has the right to tell me what to do with my body. And who the fuck decides what constitutes as marriage other than the man and wife, man and man, or woman and woman. The South doesn't understand how hypercritical they are. If Southerners were as "moral" as they think they are, they would understand that Christians do not pass judgement on others, gay, straight, whatever. I am ashamed to live in Tennessee.

until this year, i always disagreed with all of the people who threatened to move to canada if bush was reelected. but thats probably because all of them were dumb pot-smokers who wanted to live somewhere where weed is decriminalized, which is a ridiculous reason to move.

however, i made a promise to myself last week that if bush was reelected and if i failed either of my nursing classes this semester [which is possible, not probable- i would have to retake the class and it would be a huge pride pill for me to swallow] that i would move back to london and start nursing school there.

and i cried last night and today. im sad for my country. im pissed at my dad. i dont want to deal anymore. and i dont want the people who really have to deal with bush [the poor, the sick, the iraqis, the soldiers] to suffer any more.

roadie, that was great. Thanks. :)

I could say so many angry things here, but lucky for me, I've said them somewhere else already. Still, it's disappointing as fuck. At least I can find solace in the fact that I don't have any American blood flowing in my veins...

And the exit polls from Ohio were so promising...

Kerry actually opposes gay marriage, but I guess he still wasn't homophobic enough for them southerners

(Edited by Amanda at 8:57 pm on Nov. 3, 2004)

Don't give up hope people. Looks like we got swindled again.

www.blackboxvoting.org

One heavily Dem precinct in Ohio reported NEGATIVE 25 million votes.

Right.

So maybe the exit polls WERE correct and the right can stop blaming the "bloggers' for errant exit polls.

Don't give up hope in the political process. I'm really pissed and upset but what doesn't kill us only makes us stronger. Hopefully these next 4 years will be the undoing of the Republican Party.

It kind of feels like the end of what will be Star Wars Episode III.

J

Well, my candidate didn't win either. But if I had to pick between Bush and Kerry (and thankfully, I didn't), I would rather have Bush.

So I knew ya'll would be upset, but damn. Don't you think that some of you are being just a wee bit overdramatic? No? Well, go ahead and move to Canada, then, if that's what you want (I will MISS alot of you!). Or go ahead and "find solace in the fact that you don't have any American blood flowing in your veins."

I personally wish I could move to Mars. I hate how much animosity and vitriol are in the air these days. And things wouldn't be any better if Kerry had won. Well, for you guys they would be. But then the other half of our country would be pissed/ashamed/headedforcanada. I can't stand this atmosphere. It made my heart joyful to hear Kerry, then Bush plead for Americans to come together and bridge the partisan gap. But immediately the joy gave way to sadness, because I know that these words were hollow and this bridging will probably never happen. In fact, I think it's more likely that we'll see a full-scale civil war. Is that what we want? Oh LOVE, where are you?

(Edited by jamiecarroll at 11:14 pm on Nov. 3, 2004)

Well, I'll be the one to crash the party and say I'm happy. I'm not happy with the way things are by any means, I'm not happy with the way things will probably be in the next year or so, I'm not even all that happy Bush has been re-elected.

I'm happy because Kerry didn't win. I'm even happier I won't have to hear as much political crap from either side now that its all over.


Here is a link for some of you. Let me know if you need help packing.
http://www.reuters.com/newsArticle.jhtml?t...92&pageNumber=0

(Edited by joeywade at 10:08 pm on Nov. 3, 2004)

I feel for all the people that have spent the past four years loathing this administration, I can't imagine what this whole deal feels like. I think it would behoove some of you to keep the faith while simultaneously letting yourself be pleasantly surprised.

In many many many many many other circles, overturning Roe V. Wade would be a sweet deal. And don't take that to mean I'm volunteering to have THAT conversation.

i dont see many republicans realizing that there is, actually, another country in this world.

and overdramatic? i dont see how any of you can NOT be emotional about what is going on in our country! how can you NOT be emotional about civil rights being taken away from anyone? how can you NOT be sad about the growing disparity between whites and minorities? how can you NOT be upset that our economy is shot and millions are out of jobs and cant send their children to decent schools or their parents to decent care facilities? how can you NOT be emotional about our countrymen and countrywomen DYING in a war over OIL and POLITICS? PLEASE!!!!!!!!!! FEEL SOMETHING!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Look, I understand being upset. But look at some of these things that are being said.





I'm just saying: it's not the end of the world. I really do think that America as a nation is pretty moderate. You have a certain percentage who are more extreme on either side. I think the problem is that Americans have to choose between two candidates. I think that a high percentage of people are just choosing the lesser of two evils. So all a party has to do to win is have a candidate who is slightly less bad than the other guy. In this case, in the eyes of Americans, that candidate was Bush. I think that Kerry was a terrible choice by the Dems, and I've said before that I would've been alot more likely to get behind some of the other choices (like EDWARDS). ANYWAY, my point is that America is not a nation of people who think like Bush just because we elected him. If the Dems come with a better candidate in 2008, they'll win. Don't forget that we just elected Clinton 8 years ago. I obviously don't know for sure, but I'd be willing to bet that the next 4 years will not be as bad as some of ya'll are predicting. Roe v. Wade, for example, will NEVER be overturned.

2008:

Hillary Clinton and Barak Obama

versus

Jeb Bush and Dick Cheney

That's not a good idea, if they want to win.

No matter what you or I may want, America will not elect a female president in 2008. And maybe not ever. Vice President? Maybe.

I wouldn't say not ever...surely not. I mean, India has had a female President.

You think a black President would happen before a woman? I don't think that gay people have a chance in my lifetime, unless someone pulls a McGreevey.

Calm down, Pro-Choicers. Roe V. Wade will NEVER be overturned. Everyone knows this, in their hearts.

Ugh I don't want to be expending any energy on this. Its like asking an exhausted boxer who just lost a 15 round fight to pontificate on why he got beat.

so, in brief, John Kerry always was and still is a fucking moron. you can't blame anybody for not liking him. One of my biggest frustrations is that Iowa and New Hampshire choose our nominees. But I can't even get into that bullshit right now.

As such, Hillary would be an even bigger disaster in 2008. But her fucking ego is so big there ain't nothin stopping her from running. I'd vote for Obama in a second, and he can inspire, but his lack of experience is an easy target. Edwards...fuck, who knows. The thing to remember is, like I said, this country is going to be drastically different in four years than it is now. There's going to be a lot of shit that goes on, and whoever can strike a chord with democrats over that shit will hopefully get the nomination.

jesus, i can't believe i'm thinking about this. I need a year or two off from politics. Its just been too hard on me over the past few years. So, don't bring it up to me in conversation. I'm done for a long, long time. I've lost all faith and i'm going to sit back and watch the disaster now, cause trying to stop it is obviously no use.

The Democrats have to run somebody from the South or Midwest in my opinion. There's no way Hillary will connect with farmers in Iowa. Kerry clearly struggled and failed to connect with the "heartland". America don't like no smart-talking politicians.

Like Al Gore, just more personable.

Jesus man, be GLAD people care enough that they're this dramatic about it on the very next day. If it was 2 weeks later I'd be right behind ya but let the sting wear off for christ's sakes. It was a bitter and very close loss for the dems so cut em some slack jack.

The dems need to take a deep breath and figure out why 51% of the country said no thanks to what the democaratic party has to offer. Cause when the Republicans roll around in 2008 with Bill Frist it's gonna be another tough battle.

I wouldn't use India as a positive example of a female president.

I didn't say she was a good one.

You hate Bush. All of your friends hate Bush. All of the people on TV hate Bush. It seems that everyone in the whole world hates Bush. Yet, somehow, he won both the popular vote and the electoral vote. While it was a very close election, he still managed to win by three points. How did a man that everyone hates win a second term?

Was there some sort of massive voting fraud? Nope. There were no armies of Republican-controlled state troopers disenfranchising millions of minority voters by locking them up on Tuesday. Thanks to P. Diddy's threats to murder anyone who didn't vote, you were able to get the traditionally left-leaning young voters to the polls. Even in a relatively fair election with record participation, Bush still won. How could this happen?

Do you remember all of those people that you look down on? Remember the people who shop at Wal-Mart? Remember those soccer moms who drive gas-guzzling SUV's? What about the guy who works at Jiffy Lube? Do you remember those gullible fools who are naive enough to believe that "Jesus" died for their "sins?" What about the people who actually bought a Toby Keith CD? Do you remember those sell-outs who work behind a desk at a big corporation from 9:00 to 5:00 every weekday? Remember those people who don't buy their clothes at a thrift store? What about the people who don't "discover" a new indie band every week?

I've got bad news for you. Even though none of these "little people" are as smart as you, we still let them vote. Yes, all of those unwashed, uninformed, backwards-thinking yokels have the same voice in our republic's government as you do. Can you imagine?!? People who don't think the same way as you are actually allowed to help choose our country's future direction. Those morons who don't share your omniscient plans for our domestic and foreign policy still get to vote.

But wait! That's not the worst of it. Not only do these "little people" get to vote, but there are more of them than there are of you! You see, that's the problem with being an elitist. You will always be in the minority. If everyone was as smart as you, you wouldn't be very elite.

So what should you do? You may be tempted to leave the country. You say, "Fine! If I can't have it my way, I'll just leave." Let's face it though. You have neither the courage nor the means to leave your safe, comfortable home here. Besides, if you leave, how will the country that you claim to love so much ever get better? Perhaps you're tempted to try apathy. "Screw 'em all! When they all get drafted or die from the flu because there are no vaccines, then they'll see! They'll say, 'We're so sorry. You're so smart. We should've listened to you all along.'" Don't count on that happening anytime soon. Instead, may I humbly suggest that you try one of the values that you espouse so vigorously...

Tolerence.

You're always telling the "little people" that they need to be more tolerant of minorities and other countries. Perhaps, though, you should try to be more tolerant of the "little people." You don't have to agree with them. You don't have to like Bush. Just tolerate them. Recognize that intelligent people can put a lot of thought into a decision but still come up with a different answer than you. Accept the fact that an opinion that differs from your own isn't automatically invalid. Those "little people" are just a wee bit smarter than you give them credit for. They know that you look down on them. They know you don't like them so they didn't vote with you.

Maybe... just maybe... if you try tolerating them and recognizing that their opinions are valid too, they will vote with you next time. More importantly, you might actually learn something from listening to someone who sees the world differently than you.

What a wonderful post. I honestly couldn't have said it better if I had sat down for three hours and tried.

I have at least 3 friends who voted for Bush, and almost my entire family did, too.

I understand what you're trying to say, but it's really kind of pigeonholing people. They don't buy Toby Keith CDs and work at huge corporations, just like I buy clothes from Target and Express and my favorite band this week is Foreigener.

When it comes to my family, especially, I can't understand where they're coming from. I try to put myself in their shoes and figure out how/why they feel the way they do. But I can't get it. Mom asked if I voted for Jane Fonda yet, etc etc.

I grew up around the "little people," and was in the minority with my opinions. I'm happy now to have friends that I can talk with that won't mock me for wanting the rest of the world to like us, and not be afraid.

I am upset, but I am not surprised with the result. This didn't come out of nowhere and smack me in the face, I understand that my political opinion is is the minorty (at least in Tennessee).

By the way, Davidson County (and Humphreys County, where I voted) ended up Democrat.

I'm not trying to pick a fight or anything, but I genuinely in my heart of hearts cannot understand where they come from.

Tom,

would the tolerance you refer to include the tolerance of homosexuals living together in matrimony in your neighborhood? does it include the tolerance of viewpoints of other cultures and countries around the world before one of them is invaded? does it include the tolerance of religions other than protestantism? does it include the tolerance of poor people unable to pay for the health care they deserve and need? does it include the tolerance of minorities from low-income school districts on our college campuses? does it include the tolerance of small, mom and pop businesses in our towns, in the shadows of the giant retail corporations? does it include the tolerance of non-white skinned people trying to come to this country for a better job (like all of our ancestors)?

Let's get one thing straight right now, pal. I will never, ever, ever, till the day i die, tolerate anyone who discriminates and seeks to restrain the rights of minorities, homosexuals, and non-christians in the name of jesus christ or national security. You know why? because that's exactly why we had segregation for so long. that's exactly why secular science couldn't be taught in the south until last century. all of those unwashed, uninformed, backwards-thinking yokels who (sadly) have the same voice I do, get to legislate hate and INTOLERANCE.

So you're asking me to tolerate intolerance? (this reminds me of that Onion headline with the picture of Sean Hannity and the caption "Fox News reporter asks the questions others are too smart to ask"). would you have told that to kids like us in the 1950's who were infuriated with rednecks voting for segregationists?

i have a lot more to say but i have to go to work.

I love you, Tom Foolery-- even if you are a Republican (which you clearly are).

it truly is peculiar how different we are. I don't consider myself a republican but most of my family votes democrat. What's even crazier is that we're all trying to do the same thing, which is make the world better [I'm assuming]. I've grown to esteem dissent, in some cases. Though hate and things in any perspective continues to be unappealing.

tom foolery, your post rocked. roadie, your post sucked. I don't ever remember African Americans and whites holding hands and playing Jenga til the wee hours so we can stop all that "the dem.'s are the friends of the world" business. The debtor does not determine the breadth of their own repayment. We still have segregation and we will all be backward thinkers 100 years from now.

And it's dumb to think that an entire regional area is the beginning and end of stupidity, so put down that "insert the pinnacle of coolness here" magazine and realize that everyone's stupid everywhere. Being smart and in the south doesn't make you an exception, it makes you a smart person in the south and nothing more [or less, as it were].

It's not so crazy when you see through the idealistic bullshit and admit that we're all trying to make the world better for ourselves, not everyone else.

(Edited by carligula at 2:11 pm on Nov. 4, 2004)

thank you tom.

Chrisanthemum,

Hi. The name of the "insert the pinnacle of coolness" magazine is The Nation. FYI.


Huh? Are you serious? seriously, explain that further because its a bit confusing. before i jump to conclusions about what you mean. (this would be an example of tolerance, no?)

You know, honestly, now that i think about it, I don't know what you guys are getting so worked up about. I mean, why do you care about us? You guys won. You're getting your war(s). You're getting 4 more years of it, God--err--Bush willing. You're getting your tax cut and your privatized health care and your gay-hate. This is a republican's dream, is it not? You should be jumping for joy right now, not upset that us little dissidents don't like it. We're the ones eating shit.

Man.



I appreciate roadie capturing my despair/hopelessness/sense of dread that started yesterday. For those of us with an emotional attachment to justice and tolerance, it was a heartbreaking election. Yes, there is elitism in progressive politics. No, you shouldn't expect everyone to agree with you, even if you're "right". But there are fundamental standards of honesty and goodwill that you should expect your leaders to adhere to. Much like our discussion about sending the kids to war- it goes beyond policies, strategies, etc., and is something deeply rooted in this administration's "values".

From my perspective, Bush et al have spent more time lying than telling the truth, more time accumulating wealth for their cronies than spreading prosperity, and more time doing what is in their best interest than what is actually beneficial to the country and the world. So, while I can accept that democracy seems to have not been trampled this time, I do not have to tolerate or accept the irresponsible behavior of the administration. I think it violates normal human standards of decency. I think it's despicable. It makes me feel sick, and it makes me embarassed to be represented to the world by those people.

I can respect the wishes of the majority of the nation, and understand that there are some serious cultural differences, but I will never forgive this administration for what they've done to our country and our world. I think Tom's point about ego & tolerance is well taken, but there is a difference between the administration and the people that elected them...I can hate one and tolerate the other.

I feel like leaving too, but that doesn't solve anything. Time for a cheesy quote? I think yes:
"Our lives begin to end the day we become silent about things that matter." ~Martin Luther King, Jr.

TF: That was one of the best posts ever on this message board. It perfectly encapsulates my disdain for major party politics in this country. Notice that I did not just say "Democratic Party politics." Republicans are just as guilty of the elitism that you describe.

Roadie: There is a difference between disagreement and elitism. No one is suggesting that you should agree with the Republicans. What is being suggested is that not having an elitist attitude toward those you disagree with could go a long way toward creating meaningful compromise or even winning them to your side. Refering to them as "those unwashed, uninformed, backwards-thinking yokels who (sadly) have the same voice I do" will not achieve anything positive. Any time that we start thinking we are better than the man next to us, we are headed for trouble. Again, I know Republicans are just as guilty, but that doesn't make it okay.

I really like your signature: "Some day, love and truth will prevail." Amen, brother.

(Edited by jamiecarroll at 10:54 pm on Nov. 4, 2004)

How do I respond without starting a race war of some sort? All I can say is, in the very limited encounters I've had with you, you've been hanging out with white people (who happen to mostly be democrats) and I've never noticed a hint of racism from either side. Maybe we didn't hold hands and play Jenga, but we walked together to a Features show, and I think that's just as cool. That wouldn't have happened just 40 years ago, and in the scheme of things, that's really not that long.

Tom Foolery is the one who called them "unwashed, uninformed, backwards thinking yokels". I used his phrase. In fact, and i meant to draw attention to this earlier, Tom Foolery is the one who rattled off the unflattering conservative stereotypes, accusing me/us of looking down on them. Meanwhile, he refers to them in a disparaging manner to make his point, so maybe i'm not the only elitist around here. Of course, i'm reading between the lines here, which can be dangerous, but i'd be interested to know if i'm the only one who found the language of his post a bit ironic.

I know the point is that elitism and egotistical intellectualism is not likely to change anyone's mind or do any good. point taken. just don't ask me to "tolerate" the wretched culture that breeds hate, ignorance, and ethnocentrism.

His whole post was sarcastic (or "ironic," if you'd rather).

Clinton is not a good choice for 08. It would be too easy for the likes of Karl Rove to tear into her as a "liberal elitist." The Southern Rule holds true. I think John Edwards is our best bet. Maybe Obama on the VP ticket although he won't have been in office very long. Edwards will probably want to go with a candidate with more experience.

The BIG race is going to be the Tennessee Senate race in 2006. Frist is supposedly giving up his seat. Who knows if that will hold true. We have to fight for the House and Senate though.

J

Harold Ford Jr. vs. Marsha Blackburn

The GOP in Washington LOVES Blackburn. She'll have the national party support, if not the local. Man, you wanna talk about an evil woman....

Ford, on the other hand, is probably less of a sure bet. He is too moderate for some old-skool democrats, and regardless of that, an african american from Memphis is (sadly) a much tougher sell than someone like Phil Bredesen or Bill Purcell to the provincials. I'll vote for him though.

Purcell may run, and Van Hilleary(!) probably will until he gets annhilated in the primaries because he is such an airhead.

We have a real shot at this seat, though. Especially if the shit continues to pile up with the Bush administration.

all that is true, and I would venture to say that I have been hanging out with white people at rock shows (who happen to mostly be democrats) than have been more receptive to me than most I've encountered, perhaps in all my years.

But most of my time is spent around white people, and I wouldn't say walking to a show, standing for a couple hours, smelling like smoke and getting hit in the boob (Rob) constitutes breaking out the banner of brotherhood, and hopefully neither would you. That sort of endeavor would take a vast amount of energy that every political party has yet to come close to, especially the democrats who already have the weighty endorsement of many black leaders that goes unquestioned.

The segregation thing was about the fact that Michigan ranks higher than Alabama in the most segregated schools (voluntary segregation, obviously). Which means scrapping a couple of laws that were b.s in the first place is only the beginning. Tthe pipeline theory of exposing the next generation to some TV, 50 Cent, Dave Chapelle and the black guy from Star Trek with crossed fingers in hopes of creating a racism-sterile environment was shoddy at best, and a bit lazy.

this is where I say, "huh? are you serious?"
this is going to sound way wacky but my vote was not agenda-based. It was society-based. I voted for what I thought was best for me and for YOU TOO. There is a tear rolling down my cheek now like the indian* in that commercial.

my political muscles are shot and will be on ice for another 3 and 1/2 years.

*the term "indian" was used instead of "native american" to maintain the integrity of the joke.

People say this with such certainty, as though there isn't a large portion of our population willing to vote for president on this very issue.

Actually, I would. I'm not giving anyone special treatment because of their race. That's not what "brotherhood" is. I try to treat people the same, because pointing out differences is counter-productive and creates an "us vs. them" mentality.

I keep hearing you say that race-relations suck, but I'm yet to hear your suggestions for change.

m'kay, this is where I'll get off the personal opinions train, because...well. yeah. anyway, yes I see what you're saying and I half agree with you. half. actually 60/40 disagree but...no, special treatment I guess is bad. And I think you mean "add to" the us vs. them mentality that already exists.

race-relations don't suck, they just tend to be seriously lacking in the areas that actually count for something And, I wake up with suggestions for change, but I won't be sharing them anytime soon.

Productive!

you know what, JC? I've thought long and hard about this issue in the last few days and I've had to conclude that you were right for not voting for either of the evils. Perhaps I've been too "realist" as far as choosing candidates. Let's face it, at the end of four years, the presidency isn't going to be radically different depending on the candidate you support unless under extreme circumstances and the same goes for all the representatives and senators.

Six months ago, I would have casually passed over the idea of "wasting" my vote on 'no-names.' But, now, I think I'm going to have to make every effort to not vote for career politicians-- to not vote for the same damn people every two and four years. Everything about the way our country is run now lends itself to the constituents giving up their freedom of choice in a representative. We listen to two candidates. We support two parties and the nominations given by those parties. Doesn't America have more of a voice than that? Why am I [we] continually forced to vote between a choice of people that I wouldn't ordinarily choose? Now I think the solution is in shaking down Washington and leveling the playing field so that he politicians have to listen to us. At this point I'm starting to rant, but my conclusion has been that we all need to vote for people that aren't the lesser of two evils. I mean, if we can vote in anyone for the job why are we constantly battling between two platforms? We need to take back that freedom. Maybe it's all a pipedream, but that's how I feel now. And maybe I'm just not making sense. But it would be really sweet to abolish the two-party system and have people run on their own platform rather than predetermined tripe.

Posts about how you're crazy from all of the smug haters...errrrrr..."realists" in 5-4-3-2-1...

But seriously, DS, I'm glad that you see it my way. I had the very same revelation before the 2000 election. And ONCE UPON A TIME (FOUR YEARS AGO), alot of people here agreed with me. Do I need to start naming names? But this time around, all of those people were PUSSIES and did the very thing that they used to chastise others for: voting for the lesser of The Two Evils (aka "voting your fears"). And I've made it a point to call out these people as often and as loudly as I can.

As time has passed, I have come to realize that the third party dream will always likely be just that - a dream. I used to walk around saying that, you know, if everybody just started thinking and being true to themselves with their votes, we really could overturn the two party system. I'm not so sure anymore. But that DOES NOT mean that I will stop voting third party. I'm going to vote the way I want to vote even if not one other person votes the same way.

I suppose that deep down, I do still hold onto a slight sliver of hope that one day things could be different. But mostly I'm just voting the way I vote on principle.

(Edited by jamiecarroll at 9:33 pm on Nov. 8, 2004)

its not that cut and dry, jc. 9/11 happened. And George Bush used it to start an unjust war. How were we supposed to foresee that happening when we voted for Nader?

I think after 4 of the most chaotic years in our nation's history, changing your mind and realizing that a new strategy must be adopted is not hipocritical, but rather a necessity.

A "new strategy"?!! Is that what you call it? I call it going back to the same old bullshit. And how is that "new strategy" working out for you, by the way?

Ah no, he di'nt!!! You got served!

I'll accept the pussy-calling, because I did abandon third parties in this election. But I have to (surprise) go with roadie on this one- in 2000, I was not impressed by vast differences between the expressed goals of the Gore & Bush camps. Nader represented my views almost perfectly, so I voted for him & I have no regrets. I still believe in third parties, I still don't call myself a Democrat, I agree that the 2-party system makes a mockery of our democracy. But the 2004 election was unique in a couple of ways: (1) Desperate times call for desperate actions. For reasons I've mentioned before, I find Bush et al appalling. So much so, that just removing them from power became my goal, trumping other goals like electing someone who actually gives a shit about the people & is not beholden to corporate interests. (2) I did perceive a significant difference between Bush & Kerry. I don't think Kerry's a moron- I think he's smart and has an admirable record. I could support his ideas enough to feel okay voting for him. Did I love him? Not at all. Was he good enough to take my vote from Nader? Yep.

I'm glad I voted for Kerry this time, but I'm kind of with deathscythe in terms of the future. I've returned to my former disgusted-with-America self, and that will probably push me more into the "fringe" politics I'm used to participating in. And I assume the Green (or other left-wing faction) party will still be there to welcome myself and other pussies back into the fold.

I'm confused by one thing JC. Earlier you were espousing love, and feeling burdened by all the hate and vitriol prevalent in our society. However then you called a sizable portion of people "pussies" because they thought they would be better served and the nation would be better served by voting differently than they have in the past. Doesn't that seem just a bit hypocritical to you?

(Edited by Ceeze at 1:27 pm on Nov. 9, 2004)

I equate this with love

you would.

Just calling a spade a spade, my friend. No love or hate about it.

no, you have an opinion, a hateful one.