mysogynistic stupid bastard killing machine!!! grrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrr...

But really, aren't we all?

On a related note, Charles Bronson died today. I liked Death Wish.

(Edited by richarddawson at 9:08 pm on Sep. 1, 2003)

Yes, he's quite the idiot, and I hate him.

That's sad about Charles Bronson. My dad was probably disappointed. I can imagine him saying "That's a shame. He made some good movies".

I must say I appreciate all the insightful criticisms offered here against the president. Where are you, Lauren?

If you hate Bush, he's going to be in Nashville soon. I got this in my email today. Is anyone from the Features message board planning on attending and protesting his ass?

---->>

YOUR PRESENCE NEEDED! Spread the Word…
 
FREE SPEECH Gathering to Greet President Bush…  Hear Our Voices
Money for War? Food, Jobs, and Housing Need it More.
 
Monday, September 8th 4:00pm – 7:30pm  Gathering
                                                5:15ish Bush Arrival Expected
6:30pm NPJC Press Conference
                                    Naomi Tutu & Musician Steve Earle to Speak
West End Avenue, Between 21st & 22nd or as many blocks as are needed.
* Accessible Bathrooms available for Elderly and People with Disabilities (find a peace marshall)
 
Join masses of Middle Tennesseans who have gathered to send clear messages to our President.  The messages will vary as our President’s choices have affected residents in almost every arena –  from the unilateral War on Terrorism to the cuts in veteran’s benefits to the dismantling of Headstart. The unity will be in our message for the President to listen to the people.
         
This FREE SPEECH gathering is set to greet President Bush as he enters Vanderbilt Loews Plaza for a $2,000/plate fundraiser for the Republican Party. President Bush will take pictures with any supporter who can raise $20,000 for their election effort.  President Bush is expected to arrive around 5:30pm. At Money for War? Food, Jobs & Housing Need it More, the Speech will be Free, the food will be given to the hungry, the voices will be diverse, and the purpose will be clear. This rally is a call for decency and honesty in government and society, a prayer for peace and justice, and a demonstration of solidarity with one another that we will shoulder the work needed to make the ideal of democracy a reality.
 
Food Not Bombs will be providing a special 2 cents a plate meal for the homeless in Nashville as a clear message of how we need to redirect our priorities…
 
As of September 8th, over $72,000,000,000 (72 Billion Dollars) have been spent on the War in Iraq for reasons that were never substantiated.  What has been the result?  More importantly, how could we have used this money to build a global community instead of perpetuate a cycle of violence.
 
With 72 Billion Dollars:
* Over 7 Million American Children could have gone to Head Start. 
* 953,368 additional school teachers could be hired for one year.
* 715,037 additional affordable housing units could be built.
 
*Estimates from Congressional Budget Office.  See www.costofwar.com
 
Add your group to the list below (send to matt@nashvillepeacejustice.org) if you are planning to attend the rally:
 
The Nashville Peace and Justice Community
Food Not Bombs
Service Employees International Union (SEIU)
Youth from a local congregation will be coming to ask “Mr. Bush, what about our future?”
Women in Black
Interfaith Coalition for Peace
Veterans for Peace
Middle Tennessee Green Party
Chatanooga Area Green Party
Find 18 – Progressive Democrats
 
Meanwhile, check out the following article:
Congress Forecasts $480 Billion Deficit
http://www.reuters.com/newsArticle.jhtml;j...ssionid=YYAK1C0

interesting that asian characters are intermingled in that press release...



it's actually propoganda from the communist east!

Bush must have really ruffled some feathers to turn normally sane adults into dyslexic activists.

Maybe by spending money to kill people that don't like us, we'll lessen the number of militants likely of bombing our relatives for anti-capitalist bullshit reasons. I don't think George Bush is the most competant president we've ever had, but I don't really think anybody other than John McCain would have done an above average job. Anyway, I don't think that our government is flawed enough to let one individual sit around and play the world as if it's a video game. There were plenty of people involved in the decision to attack Iraq, not one overzealous cowboy. I know I'm kind of stirring the pot a little, but I don't see causing a raucous in West End as a means to fixing anything. If something's going to be changed, you'll have to learn that you need a lot of money and then you can hang out with the President and he might listen to what you have to say. Until then, most of the protestors that we see on TV will continue to look like hippie radicals and no President is going to listen to them (and yes, that is fucked up but that's reality). It's just like in real-life: say you're a person that always has bad breath. If some random guy comes up to you and says, "You don't smell very fresh", you'll think they're an asshole. If it's one of your good friends that makes the comment, you're likely to take it to heart and care without being mad at them. The moral is, George Bush is gonna think you're a dick if he doesn't know you and you tell him he has bad breath, but if you get to know him, he might do everything to change it, because he has reason to trust you. You may all proceed and mock my ignorant semi-conservative stance, because I know I'm alone on this one.

Jeez, dude. It's bad enough people are going to protest his military policy (among others), but do you have to call him out on his bad breath? That's just uncalled for.

Seriously, though, you make some valid points. I've always been more of a realist and the needing money to make a difference idea seems pretty spot-on.

I was on the beach at the Jersey Shore, no joke. Wish I was in Nashville to thumb my nose at the Big Dumb Guy with you, girlfrombirmingham. So yeah, SOS, I hate him too, but I have to say that mr. dawson is correct and GW isn't even close to being responsible for the shambles our government/ world is in. I'm more afraid of the deeply evil & more intelligent ones like Cheney & Rumsfeld. That's where mr. dawson stops being right, though- nothing anti-capitalist should be called bullshit! Remember kids: property is theft!

Damn hippies.

That's very true, but I don't know any better way to describe America other than by capitalism. It's what our country thrives on, it's part of our human instinct to compete with another and out-do them. Whether that be by having more money, more land, more stuff, or just feeling more successful, everybody wants to be on top. In America, what better way to show that you're on top than by owning a bunch of shit. I don't see that changing at all in my lifetime or my grandkids lifetime, for that matter. When you look at it in the light that you have cast Lauren, it seems incredibly pathetic and stupid, which it is, in theory. In reality, there's no way to change the opinions of so many who believe in capitalism, especially since people have competed with others for status as long as man has existed.

Now I remember why I hesitated to post anything political on a music related message board, because you get these kinds of answers. You guys are obviously not dumb, and I feel that if you read more across the map news and looked a bit farther into some of these problems (current war, Bush, money spent in Iraq, etc), you would be as quitely outraged as I am. But beware, you might end up on a street corner holding a sign with me and a bunch of hippies.

And I'd say to check out antiwar.com, dodge the editorials and check out the news links which are updated daily. (Most come from NY Times, Wash Post, etc)

Cheeeeers

With all due respect, I wouldn't be caught dead.

Wouldn't be caught dead? Quite the loyalist! I at least hope you vote. (or maybe not, ha)

nor would I, and no, I wouldn't call myself a loyalist either. . .

All discussion of the inherent evils of capitalism aside, I don't think it's going too far simply to state that the billions of dollars spent to rid the world of still to be found weapons of mass destruction and still to be located evil dictator(s) could possibly have been better spent elsewhere.

Also, I don't think the point of a protest is just to get the president's attention. I think it also has a lot to do with waking up the community by letting a group's presence be known. Having gay pride marches has not altered much legislation on gay marriages and other issues (especially not in Nashville), but it has certainly made the public more aware. "We're here, we're queer, get used to us" is a chant we all know, isn't it? And now we also see that the mainstream public opinion has also changed drastically (i.e. Will and Grace is a hit show on prime time). I think the same is and can be true of political demonstrations. Wouldn't you say that the demonstrations during the Civil Rights movement had some impact?

Sorry to rant, but how can you say demonstrations are pointless???

**

(Edited by richarddawson at 7:35 pm on Sep. 2, 2003)

Well-played. Unfortunately for you, I do.

(Edited by richarddawson at 7:34 pm on Sep. 2, 2003)

I'm by no means saying that they are pointless. If what I wrote came off like that, I should then clarify. I am not in any way against protests. That would be stupid. I am however against getting people riled up (not everybody acts like a dick, but let's face it, there's always a few) over something that is going to possibly make a bad impression and deflate their stance.

I find it hard to compare the race protests of the 60's to this. I don't see people against Bush getting the shit beaten out of them by police in the streets for "blasphemy." There's a difference. I see your point, but there is a difference. Keep it peaceful, keep the murderer chants to a whisper and somebody might listen. But, honestly, if I were Bush and I saw a bunch of people with anti-Bush signs, I'd sneak in the back door too.

True, true. The two can't really be compared. I agree that people must protest intelligently in order to be listened to. Large numbers of people banded together under a worthy cause can be very powerful. I guess your point is that bashing the prez. isn't a worthy enough of a cause, which is a fair opinion. Let's just hope that those who do show up do as you say and keep the hysteria to a minimum and peaceably make their point.

Okay, I'm boring myself, so I'll hush.

(Edited by Token at 9:19 pm on Sep. 2, 2003)

OK hippies...here is an scenario for you...get on a plane, go to North Korea (if they will let you in) and log onto the internet to join in the Features Forum.

What? You can't log on? What do you mean? You can't find the site? Really? Why is that?

Better yet.... build a time machine and go to pre-occupation Iraq or Afghanistan, and log onto the internet to join in the Features Forum.

What? You can't log on? What do you mean? You can't find the site? Really? Why is that?

Bash Captain Texas all you want, I too believe he is a bit of an idiot, feel sick to your stomach as I do that people die every day for all the wrong reasons......But don't for one minute think that if you had your perfect world instantaneously, whatever that might be......political or otherwise...that people with different beliefs would not kill you in an instant to further their cause...regardless of how nice you are, because it happens every single day.... and it has been that way for hundreds and hundreds of years.

Having said that, I should also say this...Hippies fucking suck....the word hippy used today begs the question....are you really a hippy? Driving your nice car with stickers on it...using ass loads of gas, that you put on your parents credit card, because your at "school", which 7 times out 10 said parents are paying for from their capitalist bank accounts....A bank account that must be fairly large to bankroll school, apartment, etc....I know, I know..."I have a job"..."I work 20hrs a week and go to school", "on scholarship even". That's Cool...good for you...and that shirt your wearing was made in a sweatshop and the shoes on your feet are from a dead cow, holy to many religions....and that paper your scribbling on was once a living tree...Blah blah blah......Fuck the whales....SAVE YOURSELF.....We have all be doing it for a long time, so why lie about it now?


I new this thread would eventually suck me in.....damnit......

"I find it hard to compare the race protests of the 60's to this. I don't see people against Bush getting the shit beaten out of them by police in the streets for "blasphemy." There's a difference. I see your point, but there is a difference. Keep it peaceful, keep the murderer chants to a whisper and somebody might listen. But, honestly, if I were Bush and I saw a bunch of people with anti-Bush signs, I'd sneak in the back door too. "

I guess you haven't been to a protest in awhile- the one's I've been to are nothing like what you've stated- they are peaceful. Although they may occur, I haven't heard any "murderer chants" etc. The majority of the people I've talked to at these events are intelligent, informed people who don't like what is being done by our "leaders", and have solid arguments and facts to back up their posters. I don't think it's fair for it to be easily dismissed as some kind of hippy bullshit. It's legit. Sure, they're some hippys, but hey, they're everywhere these days. Ha.

And to address the Flat Chopper as well, of course we have freedom of speech. Of course other backwards 3rd world countries don't. Of course there will never be a pefect America, let alone a perfect world. The point of the person who bitches about capitalism is that in this country corporations are really milking the system and getting away with practically murder. Don't low brow it with the "if you don't like the greatest country on earth get out" argument- it's dumb. Of course not in every case, but the interest of the corporation seems to have become the priority in government, over the interest of the people. I don't think capitalism is bad when it's curbed and regulated. Corporate accountability is at quite a low, and on top of that they get massive corporate welfare from the goverment. That's the point. We're all as taxpayers getting screwed whether we realize it or not, and we always probably will be, but to the extent we are now is quite ridiculous.

So protest Bush. He's done a lot of shitty shit. I'll dig up a great list I found on the internet about him and post it later if I can find it. Or maybe I'm misunderestimating him.

Ha.

for the sake of argument, you could dig up a list of shitty shit for any president. lying, shady doings, and whatnot.

"if you don't like the greatest country on earth get out"


Exactly where in my post did I say that? I can't find that quote anywhere in my post....????? Are you speaking for me???

i refrain due to the fact that I'll eventually become loud and belligerent during this discussion, possibly frightening some friends and angering others.

i really cannot think of "Bush's War" as a reason to hate Bush, as I'm sure it's not the only reason. You'd have to hate Congress, the UN (even though they didn't back up their rhetoric), and all the people represented in those countless opinion polls who said they understood and backed the president's decision to go to war. I guess you would have to say you hated any president who decided to bomb another country or spend potential welfare money on sending troops to a country to kill people. That would pretty much take care of any president we've had. That's a lot of hating going on for a group that cares so much about people.

But, honestly I think both sides care about people. i think the people who aren't so opposed to going to war are thinking about the future children of this nation, in addition to the nation in which we are intervening. Of course, with some of those people, you have to look underneath a lot of arrogance and refusal to change.

ANd the other side of the aisle, they simply can't fathom how peace is ever decided on the idea of killing another person, including innocent civilians. They also see the needs of people here in our own country who are sometimes overlooked.

I am also trying to keep objectivity alive in this, as I do have strong convictions and opinions and question the intentions of some people. To start name-calling and saying you hate someone because he's just a stupid idiot is rather childish and makes me take you not-so-seriously. I've also had a long weekend and am tired. Actually, looking at all these words makes me tired right now.

Yeah, I was really sad about his passing too.

If an economy's actors are "curbed and regulated" by the government, it's not capitalism.

The sad fact is that deep down inside, the vast majority of American's are happy with their country. I know all of the polls show that most people are unhappy with the President, the economy, or our foreign policies, but the polls are wrong. Americans aren't "unhappy;" they're "slightly uncomfortable."

We have a wonderful system in the United States because the people can change it any time they want. The problem is that no one wants to change it. Everyone's too happy with the system because it's so comfortable. Yes, we have to pay high taxes. Yes, corporate interests dominate the political landscape, and yes, we loose a few hundred soldiers in a foreign war. But in return we get SUV's, Wal-Mart, the NFL, and Paradise Hotel. Some of you might not think that's a very fair trade, but the overwhelming majority of Americans are more than happy to make the exchange.

You may not like our Western society, but most people do. Until you take away their televisions, nothing will be changed.

wrong.

if you think we have a democracy or even a representative government, you're wrong. what we have is an oligarchy. the same families keep getting put in places of power who run in the same circles, know the same people and have the same connections.

I must disagree. The families don't simply place their members into power without ever asking the people. Instead, they are voted into power by the people.

But, yes, we do keep electing people from the same families and the same political circles. But is that inherent to our system of government? No, that's just how it works out. There's no law that says you must be a ranking member of the Republican or Democratic party to be President. At any time, the American people have the right to get pissed off and elect new leaders, but they never do that. Why not?

Because no one's pissed off; most folks are quite happy. That's why there's no change; that's why everything stays the same. Everyone on this message board is young, intelligent, and concerned about others. Most citizens don't possess any of those qualities. We look around us and are angered by the current state of affairs because we see a poor foreign policy, poverty, and a crumbling educational system. "Most people" don't see the world the same way, though. You see, most people drive their cars to their jobs and then come home to their houses at night to spend time with their families. They've got pretty good lives. Why would they want to change anything?

The problem, Mr. Scythe, is that we do, in fact, have a representative government... a very representative government. It's a very good reflection of the society it represents. You say, "The government doesn't care about the poor." That's right... it doesn't care because most of the people in America don't care about the poor. The 80% making a decent living simply aren't concerned about the 20% living in poverty. You say, "The government doesn't care about education." That's right... it doesn't care because most people say, "I don't need no gramer skillz. Why should I care if my kidz has any?" You say, "Our government sent troops to die for oil." That's right... because if the price of gas goes up, people get angry. Nobody minds if some farm boy from Idaho dies in Iraq, but if they have to spend $40 to fill up their SUV, they get pissed.

Can you expect a lethargic, self-centered, pedestrian society to produce vigorous, altruistic, high-thinking leaders? Of course not! An apathetic American society has created an apathetic government. Don't be angry about the government; it's doing its job by representing the values of the electorate. Instead, be angry about the values of the society that gave the government its power.

That was incredibly well put, TF.

Indeed it was. It's certainly easier to point fingers at distant bigwigs than to point them at ourselves and our neighbors. This doesn't mean my hatred of said bigwigs has abated, and I think the assertion that we live in a "democracy" is still questionable, but I really appreciate your insight, TF.

(Edited by Lauren at 1:54 pm on Sep. 3, 2003)

You don't see this because they don't broadcast it on your television. But it happens all the time- to people I know & care about, who aren't raving lunatics or prone to violence. Nonviolent protestors of all sorts do indeed get the shit beat out of them, regularly. More common, however, is people mentally getting the shit beat out of them---convinced by the media, the Man, their peers, whoever, that protesting injustice is something that was only noble in the past, that all of the "worthy" causes have been won, that protest is whiny or pathetic or unpatriotic. The resulting apathy does a lot more damage to our society than the physical beatings of the 60s and today could ever do.

Tom, that was brilliant. I think that really sums up why I think a lot of shit will never change.

In the context, I mean that these people do not have it as bad as blacks did during their time. Blacks had to go to different schools, bathrooms, and stores. For Christ's sake, they had to go to different fucking water fountains, because our white, God-fearing grandparents and great-grandparents were afraid of getting "black people germs." Activists do not have it that bad. If they think they're getting shat upon by Fox Television, then what the fuck are they giving them ratings for? Turn the TV off and avoid the mental anguish, which is only soft-core debate from uptight conservatives in the first place. I have to say that I don't know any true activists. The people that I know were either gypsies in the 60's smoking pot and going to music festivals, which is no stereotype. I know them. The ones closer to my age that I know are just frat-hippies or wannabes that think just because they play a banjo, have a wicked beard, long hair, smoke pot, or hate the man, then they're a hippie. They don't put the rubber to the road, so to speak. They talk the talk, but they still buy clothes from sweatshops. Why? They aren't legitimate. Blacks were fucking legitimate. They all had reasons to lash out and protest. They were taken seriously. Activists aren't always taken seriously because they haven't all banded together. You've got a bunch of people out there that just want to react to something, which is the case with many friends that I have. The power and conviction of the two, blacks and activists, is just not that comparable.

Lauren, I have a lot of respect for your stance and I take you seriously, because I can tell that you believe in what you say. You can't imagine the amount of respect that I have for that. The fact is, though, that Tom is right. Until more people get killed in America, while they're sitting at home with their wonderful families, a lot of people aren't going to see anything wrong with their situation. I really believe in my heart that our government sees this too and is trying to stop atrocities like the one in New York from happening more often, so they're trying to police it ahead of time before it's too late. I really think that they mean well and if we as America are going to lash out in angst after our friends and relatives are killed atrociously while they're doing their 9-5, then our government is going to listen and that's what they did. They saw a problem and they went after it, a direct result of what we wanted them to do. Some people just changed their feelings in mid-stride.

(Edited by richarddawson at 1:40 pm on Sep. 3, 2003)

but there are ways in which those not ranking in said parties are quelched, whether those be governmental or not.

take the presidential debates for one. another is the media.

just because laws aren't on the books doesn't mean that they're not enforced.

That was your 666th post. Suspicious.

I love Tom Foolery.

Hey, watch it, you. That banjo might just come in handy for a little "Rainbow Connection" one day.

Spoken like a true hippie. I mean pseudo-hippie.

Haha, folds knows what I'm talkin about.

You posted at 4:20, heh heh...

(Edited by richarddawson at 5:50 pm on Sep. 3, 2003)

i do hope this thread doesn't couse us to stop being MB friends. I wanted to just lay it on you as a topic for discussion before posting an essay about my views and everyone thikning im nuts and ignoring it. i do agree with a lot of what is said here. I however, want everyone to know that as against the war as i am, and call me a dirty hippie if ya want, that is NOT the sole reason i hope GB gets killed by one of his own bombs.
he wants to completely illegalize abortion. I'm sure im opeing an entire new can of worms here . . .
too late.
be pro - life if you want. be anti - abortion if you want. if you don't like abortion DON'T HAVE ONE but taking away a womon's right to choose not only in our country but all over the world is sick.
*disclaimer* if you are a man and you are pro-life, that's cool. you are entitled to your opinion, but you don't have a uterus and it shouldn't be up to you or any other male figure to decide what i do with my body.
womyn losing this right to our own bodies will set us back 30 good years of progress that we have made. i realize that womyn don't have it bad at all considering the way they are treated in other countries, but consider our own country for a minute. imagine what would happen if GB decided black people weren't allowed to vote anymore. he would be setting us back in time 50 years to a time and place where bigotry and racism ruled the country. i expect the same response from womyn if he is able to outlaw abortion. not to mention how many back alley abortions will take place if its suddenly unavailable.
abortion is not a form of birth control. but if you are 16 or if you were raped, or if you are mentally ill, or homeless, or for whatever reason . . .
the bottom line is, a fetus is not a human. and GB doesn't seem to have any problem with killing humans in other parts of the world.

i would also like to talk about gay marraiges and how much i hate him for this one too. but you've probably stopped reading by now.

anyway, my point is. yes i hate the war, but i hate him for other reasons as well.

I'm a fence-rider on abortion because both sides make excellent points. If I were forced to choose right now though, I would go pro-choice. I think gays should be allowed to do whatever they want to as far as marriage.

Ahem, partial-birth abortions. Those are what he is against. Partial. Birth. Not abortion.

But I can totally see your point. No killing in a war, but when it's convenient to dispose of a smaller being inside of you, yippee!!! You know, I believe midgets are on that line. They're so small and I say they don't have feelings. Let's kill them. They get in the way of the lifestyle I want to live.

On a more serious note, when do we draw the line? The Greeks had a mountain they took all the babies up to when they found birth defects: missing digits, crossed-eyes, bum legs. They would just levae them to die because they weren't perfect. The emotional PAIN that that baby put the parents through was just too much to bare.
The Chinese abort babies just for being WOMYN because they can only have one child per family. They want to keep on the family name with a boy, sounds reasonable right?

When do we stop being selfish and start accepting the natural consequences for our actions? I don't think people have a sense of responsibility anymore and abortion is one example of that. My opinion. I went on a tangent and would feel worse about it if you hadn't put that hypothetical "what if Bush took away black rights" question in there.

This is aimed more toward Stalker-- Let me tell you what I think did more harm to the cause of lesbians and women throughout the world than taking away the right to end a fetus' right to live ever will. How did you feel when Madonna and Britney kissed last week? That was not a stand up and wave your rainbow banner time for lesbians. That was a marketing scheme that made a mockery out of your expression of love to the same-sex. They took how you display your emotions to another woman, for that woman, or however you spell it, and they belittled it to no more than a tool to please--- now get this--- MEN. MEN. MEN. They became women who did no more than cater to a man's senses and they knew it. I think that was a large step backwards for women in general, and will continue to be as they delve into however far they are willing to go to help boys jerk off.

(Edited by foldsfan at 10:31 pm on Sep. 3, 2003)

I'm as pro-choice as they come, but the "against abortion, don't have one" argument just doesn't hold up. It's like saying "against murder, don't kill people." I personally don't think fetuses are independent living beings, but many people do, and to them, abortion is taking away a life, not just taking away a part of a woman's (I can't believe "womyn" was used in a serious discussion) body, as you suggest. Again, I believe abortion should be legal, because I personally don't see it as murder, but I don't think it is totally invalid that other people do.

Ok, back into hiding I go.

i completely agree with you. it is disgusting. i have written lots of papers about the media and the cosmopolitan magazine that caters toward "women" but really its all for the men. lesbianism is exploited. and it sucks.

it does?

im sorry, i should probably clarify. i think that smothering tv with homosexuality and wannabe-lesbians [i cant think of a good fusion word for that] can lead to acceptance. i think that the inclusion of african americans on tv could have had something to do with their eventual [ideal] equality whites, especially in entertainment. how many more closet-lesbians/bisexuals feel a little less weird and excluded after britney-madonna-xtina? and, i think its fine for people to sexually experiment with their same gender, even if they got the idea from tv.

and i think most lesbians probably liked the kiss and embrace the attention. its madonna, for fucks sake.

(Edited by stopforme at 12:44 am on Sep. 4, 2003)

OK, so most people agree that it is very hard to change. But it can be done starting with us. If you want change go to www.draftwesleyclark.com. He is the only person who has half a chance against Bush. All the other Democrats (besides Kucinich and no way in hell is he winning) are a bunch of rubes.

1) As a biologist, I think the best definition we have of "life" is fertilization/conception. That to me is the clearest beginning of human life. With that said, I still don't have the balls to make a clear decision between being pro-life or pro-choice. In general, though, I see pro-choice as being the most "realistic".

2) If men aren't qualified to legislate on abortion, you aren't qualified to decide if blacks should be able to vote. You are white, right?

Yeah, I'm staunchly pro-choice, mostly because I work in the field of reproduction, but I think it's wrong to exclude men from the issue. They're at least half responsible for the pregnancy and I get angry about anything that treats men as a lesser parent, because I think that's a trend we don't need to reinforce. Of course no man should be able to make a woman get or not get an abortion, but he should be included in the discussion. Until we have free and accessible birth control & sex ed for everyone, it would be idiotic to outlaw abortion.

Man, I really didn't want to get involved in this discussion, because it so often just degenerates into hatefulness and name-calling. But I agree with you, Carl - life begins at conception. Therefore, abortion is the intentional ending of human life, which, in my mind, makes it murder, which makes it wrong. I am not a Republican, and do not consider myself a conservative, except for with certain economic issues. I'm just a man who believes that humans taking other humans' lives is wrong. It's the same reason that I'm opposed to the death penalty. I really can't understand why more liberals aren't pro-life.

(Edited by jamiecarroll at 4:17 pm on Sep. 4, 2003)

I've wondered that as well, but to no reasonable conclusion.

Phew, what discussions! And You resurfacing for a politician plug! Which I agree with, I think. He seems to be the only potential Democratic candidate that can definitely go toe-to-toe with Bushy.

Prostitution????

Lauren, hunny, maybe you'd like to come on down to Murfreesboro tonight so we can get our reproduct on, yeah

Here comes some more Larry King shit, ya'll, to summarize my thoughts on all this.

First of all, I have to agree with the conservatives here who have noted the lack of free speech in certain countries we call "enemies". However, the question here is not whether they need to be "liberated", but HOW to liberate. I firmly beleive in LEADING BY EXAMPLE, like gee, i dunno, Martin Luther King or Ghandi. Let's, for the sake of my "unrealistic idealism", just imagine a worldwide force of unamrmed peacekeepers invading Iraq with medicine, food, education, and love. Let's imagine a half-million people doing this instead a half-million armed soldiers threatening children with guns and bombs. Let's imagine the however many billions of dollars it is spent on supporting this international peace corp instead of spending it on guns, bombs, napalm, and other war machines. I honestly beleive that ifa few million people from all over the world peacefully invaded Iraq, it would act as a catalyst and before you know it, the whole country is with you out in the streets. At least the anti-Saddam parts of the country. There's no way Saddam would attack on a crowd/nonviolent international force like this. Hell, I'd go and volunteer for it.

Now why wasn't this idea explored? Because that makes it impossible for Halliburton to get their hands on that oil! That makes it impossible for the weapons manufacturers to get those big government contracts. That makes it impossible for McDonald's and Starbucks to open a franchise in Baghdad. That makes it impossible for GE to get their mits on the infrastructure, not to mention the ability to broadcast their TV programming (NBC). It all comes down to special interest, and yes, the republicans aren't the only ones to blame, you have to blame the entire congress. You have to blame this whole wretched culture. Its time for unchecked capitalism to go. Its time for less business involvement in the government. (Hey I think I coined that last one! :-) ).

As for W, the guy's a fucking idiot and i think you CAN hold him accountable. When you read memoirs and other insider books/magazing stories about him, he really is in charge of this shit. His way or no way. You know I really can't get into discussing him now, i'll get too pissed off. Not pissed off because I disagree with his politics, (honestly, that I can deal with) but pissed off because this country, which has done such great (and not so great) things in the past has totally sold itself short with this fucking idiot. I honestly don't really think he's an evil guy (ok, maybe a little bit), I just think a man of his marginal intellect has no business being President of the United States. Period. Its embarrassing for this country, and a disgrace to the men and women who have worked and died to make this country a better place. By reading the posts on this thread, it has become apparent to me that everyone here is smarter than W. Think about that for a second. YOU ARE SMARTER THAN THE PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES. Consider that and cast your vote for the Green Party candidate in 2004 :-).

Lastly, I am pro-life, but let me give you my definition of pro-life. To me pro-life means you do not execute criminals. You do not drop bombs on another country unless in severe self-defense. You do not let a single child in the world go hungry or die of starvation. You do not allow corporations to destroy the environment/habitat of indigenous animals. You ensure that the elderly have adequate health care to save their lives REGARDLESS of their financial situation. You do not take the life or prevent the life of any living being. Thus, the pro-choice argument does not fit in with the theory of unconditional love. This is not about the bible, this is not about religion, it is about unconditional love. I don't consider myself a moderate liberal because I'm pro-life, I consider myself even more liberal than pro-choice ACLU liberals because of this. I guess this is just the only way it all makes sense to me. It doesn't make sense to me to be pro-life and pro-death penalty like the republicans. Likewise, it doesn't make sense to me to be anti-death penalty and pro-choice. No matter which side of the fence you fall, you can't have it both ways. The death penalty basically boils down to utter, evil vengeance, and to me (beware, very strong/hurtful statement coming) abortion boils down to one of the most egotistical and selfish things humanly possible. (that one's going to get me in trouble).

Now, my problem here is there is no way I can put up a bulletproof argument with the space and time I have here. Unfortunately I have to be very brief over simple here. Rape and Incest? honestly I ride the fence here. First we need to bear in mind that these instances account for less than .1 of 1% of abortions. Anyway its a miniscule number, despite what the movie Cider House Rules would lead you to believe. Admittedly, that doesn't make any less of an issue. I think deep down in my heart I don't feel able to tell a woman who has been raped that she needs to carry this pregnancy. But the interesting fact of this is that the element "choice" was removed the moment she was raped. Same thing with an abortion to save the life of the mother. Of course you have to abort the pregnancy! There is no "choice" in a situation like that. Next argument: Women will turn to back alley abortions. First of all, in this day of age, there will never be "back alley" clothes hangar abortions. I've seen the very disturbing pictures of these back alley places in the 20's and 30's, but the pictures of the "back alley" places of the 1960's are hardly the hell holes everyone would like you to beleive.

At this point, I have to go and I don't have time to put forth a full argument to the abortion debate, so I'll leave it at that for now and perhaps come back later. I know my simple comments are very open for snipes, so I look forward to hearing counter arguments. A few things I will say: Stalkeronskates, you seem to be a very intelligent person, and keep in mind this is probably the only issue we disagree on. Please don't make yourself look silly and use the word "womyn". I understand the connotation but that really makes one sound like (to quote Annette Benning in The American President) a college freshman at a protest rally.
Second, girlfrombirmingham, earlier in this thread you gave us the same "now i see i'm wasting my time by posting here" routine that you did on your other thread. Nobody is too cool around here. I completely agree with all of your sentiments and arguments but your opinion loses merit when you talk down to people like that. I don't like new people coming on a message board and acting pompous and dropping names to make up for the fact that their not in the loop.

That's it. Peace, Ya'll. And above all of this, no matter how much you may hate me, I still love you.

being pro life is one thing, but does that mean to you that women should lose their reproductive freedom? I understand being prolife, not killing. i don't agree with murder. but i dont think that a fetus is a person. honestly. i think abortion is ok in the ist trimester. from there on out, the fetus is developing, and it get s alittle closeto call.
pro life and anti abortion are not the same thing.
and keep one thing in mind - you never know how you will react to a situation until you are in it.

the plight of womyn and the plight of african americans has been compared for decades.

i just think its sad that white male politicians make our decisions for us.

im sorry. i know its ridiculous. i just do it out of hait these days, honestly. the way you would type the word, "kite" well, ive grown used to the Y in my womyn.

I guess that's just where we disagree. I'm not a scientist and I don't remember much from biology class, so I can't really present any arguments. I just know that from the time that an egg is fertilized, a new human being starts developing. At least that's the way I see it.

Preach it! Beautifully put, roadie. To me, pro-life means supporting life more than it means one's opinion on abortion. And I almost completely agree with you in that respect- in my own life, I couldn't have an abortion because I don't want to have that kind of control over life, and because I know I'm a person who could raise a child. I also share your disgust with the (minority of) women who use abortions as birth control, or have an abortion because a child would be "inconvenient", or, worst of all to me, because their fetus has some kind of disorder/ disease. But, I'll still call myself pro-choice, and support women who choose to have abortions, because I don't think my choice is necessarily the one that everyone else can & should make. I used to be anti-abortion, for the very reasons you describe of wanting to be consistent in supporting life & peace. But life can be complex & the more I learn & meet people & hear about their experiences, the more I think it's an issue that shouldn't be legislated.

I really think the "abortion debate" will never be resolved. The fundamental issue of when life begins is completely subjective. Those of us that think it's not necessarily with conception will not see (early) abortions as murder. Those of us that think it begins with conception will.

And, sure, mr. dawson, I'll teach you about reproduction any time.

(Edited by Lauren at 5:12 pm on Sep. 5, 2003)

Oh yeah

my take on it is that all humans have heart rates and particular brain waves, which is one thing that definitely seperates us from lesser organisms (i.e. parasites, insects, whatever). Until you have a heart rate and a brain wave, you can say that it's a living thing, but you can't prove that it's a human life, or you can say that it's a human, but can't prove it's alive. Sure, we all know it's both going to be a human and the cells are alive, but my point is that until it is those things it's not. That's why I don't have a problem with an abortion within the first 26 days or so... that and the fact that I am a male and will never know what it's like to have to make the decision. I'd personally hope that anyone I was with would NEVER have an abortion, but I'm not going to force my preference upon anyone else.

This conversation has become tiresome. Now is the time on Sprockets when we dance.

The only reason I have kept remotely reading it is because I keep hoping for some good old-fashioned name calling!! It hasn't come yet. I have refrained from it, but I don't know how much longer I can keep it in.

Yeah, I agree, and I'm largely at fault for its continued existence. I love to talk about these things with intelligent & thoughtful people like yourselves, but then again I mostly use this board as a nice comfy way to waste time...somehow these more somber & realistic topics end up making it less fun.

One of the things I enjoy about being Catholic is being around a lot of people who are economically liberal and pro-life (in all respects) at the same time. Of course there are some exceptions, but that is the norm.

Uh-oh. Now I know all hell will break loose because I've brought up religion.

I guess I'm an exception there. I'm pretty pro-choice. However, faced with the situation, I wouldn't be able to do it. Unless it was in the case of rape or something.

I also differ from most Catholics in the fact that I HATE NOTRE DAME!!!! ARRRRRRRRRRRRGGGGGHHHHHHHHH.

If you are gonna root for a good Catholic D-1 school root for Boston College. At least its run by Jesuits.

This is proof positive that another forum for politics is helpful, because some people do like to read/participate in threads like these.

Good work, BrianW!

This message brought to you by the Features Administrators fan club.

boo@you.

I've always hated Notre Dame, but Tyrone Willingham is so fucking awesome...I love him, therefore I now cheer Notre Dame on. If not for that, I would still hate their asses.

the notre dame game yesterday was a tight one, but the pay off was much more because of it. damon will attest to this. i only got to see the last half.

after watching rudy, i don't think anyone can truly hate the fighting irish. they're just so loveable.

and so this thread should now be moved to a sports forum.

Sports, politics, religion: it's all the same thing, right?

For what its worth... I'm in Rudy... no shit. I dated a girl forever that went to ND... I went to a ton of games from 91-93. I used to wear the opposing teams colors and shirts just to piss everyone off.

Well at a BC game they were shooting Rudy and me and my girlfriend were pulled in as extras... I still hate that school and Rudy... always did, nothing bitter against her, I just didn't buy into their BS

Oh, and Ty W? If there is one thing Peace Frog can't stand is people referencing themselves in the third person. Peace Frog just don't get it. And Peace Frog has worked hard to understand this problem.

(Edited by Peace Frog at 8:20 pm on Sep. 7, 2003)

i love coach willingham, and rudy is the best sports movie ever, followed by the longest yard.

I think that might make the 100th time I've heard or read something from you about that being the best movie ever...too bad I've never watched it.

Thus confirms the prophecy of Daigle:
"Former NATO supreme commander Wesley Clark will announce his presidential candidacy Wednesday, becoming the 10th Democrat to seek to unseat President Bush in 2004, sources close to the retired general told CNN"

He seems like a reasonable guy, although my hippie side probably could not bring herself to vote for a military man. A military history could be what it takes to beat the Bush, though.

I'm starting to tremble. The Prophecy of Daigle is all coming together. By this time, in two years, there will be a New World Order, and The Features will have penned the National Anthem of the World. These are scary times we are living in.

Do you realize how shallow that statement sounds?

From the Good Doctor:

"The Bush family reeks of fraud and bad karma. But even worse than our wretched, gibbling president are the cowardly whores in Hollywood who are currently smearing film stars and music people like Johnny Depp by calling them unpatriotic Americans who righteously question the wisdom of invading a whole nation of Islam -- 1.8 billion worshipers -- which is a dangerously stupid idea. Disagreeing with Donald Rumsfeld about bombing anybody who gets in our way is not a crime in this country. It is a wise and honorable idea that George Washington and Benjamin Franklin risked their lives for. These thieves in the White House are so crazy with greed and power, and they are causing so much drastic damage to the world we live in, that they are the ones who should be put on trial for treason."

Gotta love HST having a column on ESPN...

Gonzo Journalist for President!

Hmmmm, I do seem to have a problem with being shallow. Ask carligula- I'm only friends with him because of his hot ass. I guess I like to call it being honest , even if it's unflattering. That is pretty shallow, you're right.

It's true. I have a spectacular ass.

In all seriousness, Lauren is one of the most genuine people I know. So back the fuck up.

I did not realize I was moving forward....