MSNBC news

Read the above link, 9 Americans died today and 4 of them were contractors in Fallujah. It's very Somalia-esque, and begs the question, what the hell are civilians doing without military escorts in one of the most anti-occupation areas there is.

It's quite a disgusting event. And I'd say that's a damn good question.

Chanting “Fallujah is the graveyard of Americans,” residents cheered after the grisly assault on two four-wheel-drive civilian vehicles, which left both in flames. Others chanted, “We sacrifice our blood and souls for Islam.”

That's it. That's the last straw. I am officially out of patience for Islam/Muslims. I know that's not PC enough for many of you. Too bad. I'm not backing down.

No, I don't like Bush. I was/am still opposed to the war in Iraq. I don't believe that we should be over there. But that is no excuse for the cowardly shit those motherfuckers have been doing in the name of religion. I know that people will say, "don't blame an entire religion for the actions of a few." But it's not "a few" anymore! Every other fucking day some Muslim is blowing himself up in a public square, or setting off a carbomb, or blowing up a train station, or blowing up a nightclub, or sniping innocent people from a rooftop. And for every terrible incident, there's a crowd of Muslims dancing in the street to celebrate it. How many incidents is it going to take before we start blaming the religion that's motivating this madness?

Say what you want about other religions in 2004 - I know that they all have their faults - but nothing else even comes close to the level of violence. Enough is enough!

(Edited by jamiecarroll at 9:58 pm on Mar. 31, 2004)

Who knew JC had this in him? I'm too tired and unenthused to argue much, but here's an interesting question. If a powerful secular army (hypothetically much more powerful than the United States Army) invaded and set up martial law in say, the bible belt.....would people take up arms against Army X while invoking the name of Jesus Christ?

(Edited by Ceeze at 9:18 pm on Mar. 31, 2004)

I think I'm out of patience for people in the middle east in general. I'm not sure if I'd go as far as to say it's an aspect of a particular religion as much as their history of hate, war and a lack of any stability or real leadership in the region. When leaders aren't about, people look up to any psycho with a big stick and a loud mouth. However, I agree with your sentiment JC. The actions that these insurgents and their onlookers/cheerleaders have accomplished today is truly without regard for any human life whatsoever. It is an example of exactly why I believe humans should stop reproducing.

I agree whole-heartedly. Tonight was the first time I had time to watch the evening news in a long time, and I was sickened. The problem is that people get so touchy about religion, trying to protect that freedom and getting pissed about people not being P.C. about it, but here we have a religion that condones death and violence. I don't have a solution.

i thought id mention that this is untrue

Religion is a cancer on society. There is a long, long, long history of religious violence in the world and to try and pin it exclusively on Islam is dangerous and ignorant. Let's not forget the Crusades. Let's not forget all those tolerant Christians that conquered the New World and massacred MILLIONS OF INNOCENT PEOPLE. Let's not forget the horrors visited by Jew on Muslim and Muslim on Jew in Israel/Palestine. Let's not forget the religious intolerance that spawned the Holocaust. Let's not forget that the civilian bodycount in Iraq is three times that of 9/11 already. Let's not forget that Iraq is total fucking chaos. I'm not defending this action. My stomach turned when I read about this at work today. I'm not defending Islam. I think it's as vile and sick as any other religion. They all spawn violence, they all spawn hatred. To chock this up to the evil that is Islam is a grotesque oversimplification of a vastly complex set of issues. I unequivocally hate all religions. I'll see you all in hell.

(Edited by neuboy at 12:34 am on Apr. 1, 2004)

i would go patrick swayze in Red Dawn on their asses, but on a much more serious note, yes fighting for your home against an enemy who is everything you are taught not to be will make you do some crazy shit

(Edited by Cautioner at 12:46 am on Apr. 1, 2004)

Yeah, that's what everyone keeps saying. And after 9/11 or only a handful of incidents, I would have bought that. But how come day after day after day after day the headlines are filled with Muslims killing in the name of religion? Are all of these Muslims "wrong?" I haven't studied the Koran, so I don't feel that I can rightly comment on that document's position on violence. But like that Features song says, actions speak louder than words. What I see is lots and lots of Muslims killing people in cowardly ways. Wouldn't you agree that in the middle east, they take Islam pretty fucking seriously? Are they not the most devout Muslims in the world? Seeing these devout Muslims doing what they do speaks much louder to me than two or three verses plucked out of the Koran about peace.

(Edited by jamiecarroll at 2:01 am on Apr. 1, 2004)

unposted

(Edited by jamiecarroll at 2:34 am on Apr. 1, 2004)

Maybe. Probably. But there's a big difference between "taking up arms" against an army in a situation of war, and strapping a bomb to yourself and blowing up a public market. I'm not faulting the Afgans or the Iraqis for fighting us in the war. It's the acts of terrorism before and after the war.

It is almost like strapping a bomb to yourself and blowing up an abortion clinic, because something you've deduced from your religious studies tells you it is God's Will. Except the abortion clinic, its staff, and its patients haven't invaded your country.

You're right - bombing abortion clinics is terrible, too. But such bombings are hardly a regular occurance. In fact, I challenge you to tell me when the last abortion clinic bombing was. The last one I can think of was in the 90s.

(Edited by jamiecarroll at 3:08 am on Apr. 1, 2004)

well personally, i think that the whole suicide bombing idea, while completely misguided and insane, takes one hell of a lot of faith. Faith in the wrong thing is bad, but it takes and enormous amount of testicular fortitude to sacrifice yourself for your cause. and for the record i am in no way condoning suicide bombings

I think you get my point though. It is amazingly short-sighted/naive/hateful to place the blame for this violence on Muslims. You know it is. You're mad...BUT you also know somewhere that this violence has little to do with religion, and more to do with fear, anger, ignorance and manipulation of these shortcomings.

I'll sleep on it and let you know tomorrow. Good night.

i'm sick of the second-hand sentiment that religion is evil. it's not that we shouldn't "blame an entire religion for the actions of a few." we shouldn't blame the specific religion, the religious beliefs of the few, or "organized religion" as a whole.

blaming problems on a single religion is unfair, as blaming problems on religion in general is equally unfair, equally oversimplifying a complex issue. religious beliefs cannot be retroactively substituted for political action, but they cannot be separated from this action either. both sides of the argument try this: those opposed to religion cite religious wars, the crusades, and (see previous post), while those defending religion cite atheistic communism, and its blood over north korea, russia and china. since a single person (and a single group) can have both religious and political beliefs, it is unfair to pick and choose which collectively identifiable belief deserves the blame for a particular action. we're talking about two spheres of belief within one person, beliefs which can overlap and even conflict within that one person.

let's look at the abortion clinic bombing example, then. someone straps on a bomb and proceeds in the name of god. they believe in god, and they believe in bombs. they believe that others do not deserve the freedom to consider abortion acceptable. this involves much more than religion, even if the motivation claimed is only a religous one. here's where the comment about islam comes back in, and why i understand the thought behind jc's comments. muslims are acting outside of the realm of faith, while claiming it as the motivator. but we can't point to the faith or to the total idea of faith. we have to be wise, and not point to either.

That's the thing. I have looked in a Koran to see statements, and I don't have one here in the lab, telling Muslims to either convert or kill. Now true, only the extreme loyalists will carry this out, or take it literally or however you want to state it, so not all Muslims are murderers. Conversely, nowhere in the Bible, namely the New Testament which is supposedly the law that extreme loyal Christians live under, does it say that killing of any type is an answer. So the psychos who blow up abortion clinics in the name of God-- solely psychos, not psychos that are following the teachings of Christ.

It is the goal of people like Osama Bin Laden to stir up just this kind of religious hatred and intolerance. Their goal is all out holy war. To give in to it is to, in effect, give them precisely what they want. Also, Bin Laden has been saying for a long time that the U.S. was planning an invasion of an oil-rich Arab state. Whether or not the U.S. invaded Iraq for oil is open to dispute, but we certainly played right into that perception.

This is better said. I retract my statement that the Muslim religion itself condones death and violence. It's the individual crazy people who hide behind religion as an excuse for their actions. This reminds me of the woman who recently killed her sons and then claimed that God told her to do so. What do you do with these people? How do you react to this sort of thing?

I don't care what religion you subscribe to, desecrating bodies like that automatically reduces you to animal status in my mind. I certainly hope that the vast majority of Iraqis are appalled.