All this talk has got me wondering why exactly some of you despise our President. I'd like to hear some of your precise opinions. If it has anything to do with "stupid cowboy", selected not elected, or any other catchy diatribe, I'll give you no more thought than you have put into your dislike for Bush. I'm also looking for something that doesn't have to do with him being a Republican and you being a Democrat, although I understand how that usually goes along with where that persons stands on the issues.

And that's exactly what I'm looking for. What issues do you disagree with him on? I'd like specific issues, and I know many of you will give them to me based on FACTS, not inane conspiracy or conjecture, such as 'What Bush and the Jews knew on Sept. 11th?'.

I'd also like to say that this isn't a challenge, so don't come out swinging. I can think of many things he's done that I don't agree with. Happy ranting.

I know this is really lame, but the guy just doesn't look Presidential. Every single time he speaks in public off of a script, he looks like the kid in class that's about to wet his pants because he his so shy. And when he speaks off the cuff, he looks like the kid that comes to class and just "wings it". I don't want a president that just "wings it".

There is an air of supreme arrogance that follows him around.

He's got a puss that you just want to slap.

I actually think he is shadier than Clinton ever was.

Someone in his admin outed a deep cover CIA agent. Not cool.

I could go on forever.

Im really just not in favor in how world relations are currently. i mean, i know much of the rest of the world were annoyed with america besides Britian (and even there with many people) because of the stereotype that Bush naturally excudes. We are all brash cowboys ready to kill the injuns and such without asking any questions.
While i do think War with Iraq was inevitable i think a bit more waiting and compromise with the rest of the world would have been a much better idea on Bush's part. We were at that point already dealing with Northern Korea and had (still have) a Budget crisis and a War seem pretty strategically placed to cloud over the rest of the gloomy forecast.
and now that the war has been over for more than a half of a year and the deathtoll of american soilders is well over what we lost during the actual campaign, we find saddam in a "spiderhole or a rathole." and all this positioned right when people are beginning to decide who they will re-elect for our president.

i dont know. these and other issues just give me the willies about Bush and while i honestly dont think who the president will be the next 4 years will alter my life to the point where im going to cry about it, i really hope Bush isnt the next president.

I listened to President Bush's press conference this morning in its entirety, and I must say that for the first time in a long time, I was impressed. I generally agree with what Peace Frog said about his speaking skills, but during the Q & A, I was really impressed with how he handled himself. He is a much better speaker when he is speaking candidly.

My problems with Bush are all fundamental disagreements of philosophy and ideology that I have with the Republican Party in general. I have just as many, if not more disagreements with the Democratic Party. I could go into them in more detail if you'd like, but the point is that I don't really have any more problem with G. W. Bush than I do with the Republican Party as a whole.

My main problem with him is the way he speaks when he isn't making a formal speech. He just usually comes off sounding stupid, and there are countless "George W. Bushisms" books and calandars to prove it. I know you didn't want a "stupid cowboy" argument, but I don't think he is very intelligent for a president, and he is representing our entire country. When he sounds stupid, he makes America look stupid.

Aside from that, my biggest issue has been this whole deal in Iraq. I still don't think the American people have been given a good reason as to why we are/were there. Weapons of Mass Destruction? Even if they were there, they were in North Korea too. Why don't we care about theirs, when we have evidence that they are already advanced enough to blow Alaska away? Terrorism? Why aren't we in Palestine where terrorism is much more prevalent? The only answer I keep coming to is Iraq has lots of oil and those other countries don't. That is not a good excuse to let hundreds of our soldiers die. Or maybe W just had an agenda because Saddam tried to kill his daddy, but I've never really bought into that one.

Also, like JamieCarroll said, I just have a problem with the conservative/republican ideology when it comes to abortion, taxes, etc.

Beause the only good thing to ever come out of Alaska was Northern Exposure and that wasn't even filmed on location.

Those are my beefs as well. It's nothing personal against him, really. Just what he stands for as far as his party is concerned (I got issues with democrats on a lot of issues as well) is what turns me off the most about him. He's too easy to ridicule, I think.

The only party that I can relate to even a little bit is the Libertarian Party, but I'm still reading up on them before I can make any definitive decision as to whatever party I would affiliate myself with.

flodsfan,

First of all, nice try with the old cutting-off-arguments-before-they-are-made routine. If you write off serious issues (example here: Bush's failure to win the majority of votes or his shoot-from-the-hip, cocky and arrogant persona) as crazy liberal catch-phrases, I'll give you no more thought than you have put into your like of Bush. You may sleep better at night by simply rolling your eyes at these issues (and not inviting a debate about them) but I, for one, find it my duty as an American to always be questioning, always be suspicious, EXACTLY like the framers of this country intended its citizens to be. With that said, I will agree with you that one problem of the far left is that there tends to be too many slogans, too many protests and not enough discussion of solutions. Too reactionary, to the point of absurdity. And yes, some hard core partisans insist on waving the bloody towel for no other reason than partisan hatred. Which I think may have been your point in bringing this up.

However you have to take it upon yourself to look into issues that are brought up by protesters and muckrakers. At least give 'em a fair shot and make up your mind. I'm sure you do, you seem to be a politically aware person. But your unwillingness to open a debate on the "cowboy" and electoral presidency issues suggests that these are areas you don't want to go into....the weakest links in your chain, perhaps??

More to the point, my complaints about George W. Bush are as follows.

1) The George W. Bush administration failed to sufficiently engage the UN and the international community before going to war and occupying Iraq. Worse, the Bush administration showed a RECKLESS DISREGARD for the opinions of the UN and its security council. Even worse than that, this disregard came off as arrogant and all powerful, effectively shoving any dissenters off the table and letting them know full well that they are no longer our ally(ies). The outcome of this was twofold: 1) we squandered any trump card and international sympathy we had following 9/11 (which could have been parlayed into more subtle and effective means of diplomacy) and 2) any suspicions the international community had about Americans being cocky, unilateral, greedy, and reactionary were solidified in the actions and words of President Bush. Using phrases like "wanted dead or alive" and the worst, "if you're not with us you're against us" made honest people who had perhaps been riding the fence on taking action against the Saddam Hussein regime back away into their corners and shake their heads. Why would someone want to be on the same side as someone who says that. "You are either on our side or on the side of the terrorists" (or in this case, the Baath Party) is perhaps, in my judgement, the single most idiotic, destructive, and damaging thing ever uttered by a presidential administration in modern times. Period. To make this statement YOUR ENTIRE FOREIGN POLICY, and running roughshod through the middleeast in the meantime is beyond hilarious, its embarrasing. And sorry charlie, if you disagree with the fact that George W. Bush's foreign policy is a farce, you are in a very very very miniscule minority in the world. You are up against the opinion of the rest of the entire world, and man I don't want those odds.

2) The reasons George W. Bush cited for going to war were not only dubious, they were false. Contrary to the current popular belief, George W. Bush told the American people that we were going to war because Saddam Hussein had weapons of mass destruction and would not disarm. There was a pressing and imminent threat with Saddam's WMD's. The administration freely admitted that regime change was not the reason for going to war, but it was the most likely outcome. Now, we find that in fact there are no weapons of mass destruction. Two conclusions can be drawn from this. 1) George W. Bush lied about the existence of WMD's (in the least, we already know that U.S. and U.K. officials knowingly used false information in their cases for war and "sexed up" their intelligence. For whatever reason, this doesn't seem to bother some people). 2) George W. Bush did not lie about the existence of WMD's, he was just given bad intelligence. If the latter case is true, one must be alarmed at the fact that our military/CIA intelligence, which is the Bush administration's bread and butter, failed us yet again. Like the FBI and IRS have failed us in years past. You'd think for the kind of money the Bushes put into the military-industrial complex, we'd have rock fucking solid intelligence when it comes to preemptive war, not just "darn good intelligence." Ironically, the rest of the world, "who stands with the terrorists", ended up being right about the non-existence of WMD's. Big surprise.

3) George W. Bush has used 9/11 and exploited the fear of the American people to further an ideological agenda that involves expanding the scope of law enforcement to the point that it infringes on rights set forth by the constitution and in fact is not favored by the majority of Americans. Giving more power of surviellance to the FBI and CIA and passing laws (pork-barrel style, deeply buried in the language of the patriot act) that are seriously damaging to rights of privacy that are treasured by both republicans and democrats. As a result, things like habeus corpus, search warrants, and rights to attorneys are being thrown out and the void of power is not being controlled by congress or the courts, but by the adminstration, the justice department, and the military-industrial complex. The Executive branch as judge and jury is quite literally THE FURTHEST THING FROM THE INTENT OF THE CONSTITUTION. PERIOD.

4) George W. Bush championed a tax cut that is a de facto cut for the rich. Let me say that again. It is a DE FACTO tax cut for the rich. I know that we all get the cuts. But this was structured to favor the very rich in an attempt to jump start the economy through "reaganomics" that HAVE BEEN PROVEN NOT TO WORK. It creates a huge budget deficit (remember when Republicans used to talk about a balanced budget amendment on the constitution? the fact that it didn't pass ended up working out pretty well for them) and does not benefit the backbone of America: middle class small business owners. That's what priviliged WASP Republicans like Bush will never understand. America is small business. America is the middle class. That is what made this country thrive. Now why would someone champion something that has been proven not to work? Cronieism (sp?) is one explanation, pandering to rich campaign donors is another, pandering to voters with the almighty dollar (and KNOWINGLY fooling them into thinking that they're benefiting in the process) is yet another. Anyway you cut it, all reasons are absolutely dispicable.

5) George W. Bush favors relaxing environmental laws and restrictions.

6) George W. Bush is not only against repealing our lax media ownership laws, he actually FAVORS more conglomeration and consolidation of television, radio, and print.

7) George W. Bush is against affirmative action.

8) George W. Bush actively supports groups who seek to damage the separation of church and state.

9) George W. Bush supports the death penalty, which again is out of step with international opinion. Moral arguments aside, literally every other modernized country in the world has banned the death penalty. He seeks to limit the number of appeals felons on death row may have and he HAS NO PROBLEM WITH THE EXECUTION OF THE MENTALLY ILL/RETARDED.

10) George W. Bush is a simpleton who has no business being President of the United States. Period. Foldsfan, I can tell already that you are much, much, much more intelligent than our President. Please don't act like you disagree. My question is, doesn't this alarm and frighten you? His cocky snickering and smirks, his one-armed lean over the podium, his inability to grasp complicated themes and vocabulary all add up to a privileged frat boy who skated through life on his daddy's name, and decided to try this ol' politics thing for the hell of it. The man does not exhibit the same intellectual prowess that his father, W.J. Clinton, Jimmy Carter, Richard Nixon, and John F. Kennedy exhibit. He asks for all his briefings to be pared down to one page memos. The man sending us to war won't read the details beyond one page. This is 100% true, not a left-wing anectdote.

I can't stand for a man of such mediocre intelligence and questionable morality to be President of the United States. Its as simple as that.

arrrrgggghhh!!!

foldsfan, I just read the part in your post about this not being a challenge and don't come out swinging....


I'm sorry, man. I thought you were trying to defend Bush's cowboy image and whatnot by cutting off the argument before it started....

Seriously, I'm sorry I got so worked up. I really thought that in light of Saddam's capture you were looking for a fight or something. Shouldn't skim the posts, should I?

Still, my criticisms of bush stand. By the way, feel free to rip me apart.

Roadie's last point... and combining that with the fact that many see Bush gaining politically from Saddam's capture makes me think of the following: Damn Bush just can't lose, can he? I mean, most people, I'd say 99.8% of Americans, can't get away with getting into Ivy League schools with average grades, living a childhood into their late 30s, finally entering into the business world but not actually using any of their own money to do it, deciding to run for politics late in life and... wind up as president. I mean, this ain't your hard working, pull-yourself-up-by-the-bootstraps story Republicans like to talk about (of course this usually involves minorities, but anyway...). Bush got away with living most of his life as a privileged, spoiled, lazy rich kid with average grades and somehow wound up in charge of the world's most powerful country. I guess that really says something about us, huh? So here we have this expensive war that daily has taken lives to search for Saddam. It took months to find him in the very place our intelligence that he'd be, in a hole, under a farmhouse owned by a close associate of Saddam's. And while we should be happy because this tyrant is captured, should we be proud in the leadership that took this long to accomplish this? But again, that doesn't seem to matter with Bush. He does things slowly, seemingly half-assed, but he's always rewarded in the end.

You don't have to like the man to think someone's a good President. I can sight a lot of the political positions he stands for and that'll be good enough as to why I don't like the man as Prez.

Mostly I think it's the fact that he's attached an element of Christianity, the convert or die philosophy ingrained in many, though thankfully buried a bit over the years, and applied that to Democracy. "Become a democratic state or die!" you might imagine him saying. It goes with his smug attitude, I suppose, but I have a hard time thinking that our form of government (yeah you can argue we are actually a republic, but we're talking symbolic terms here) is the greatest in the world, but I guess I've never fully supported the whole Truman Doctrine thing. I'd like to think that a qualifier for a country to become a Democracy is that it decides that for itself, and not having another country force it upon them.

But then you don't have a consistency with this policy. Why haven't we done something about North Korea who clearly has proven they have WMD and is a communist state? Perhaps Bush and company aren't quite the reckless cowboys we think they are and know they'd actually have a fight with the million plus army of North Korea, or Bush truly just had a spur in his britches about daddy almost getting knocked off by Saddam, I don't know.

Ultimately my biggest concerns are with government in general and how corrupt it has become with the influence and money of corporations. Bush happens to be the epitome of this, though both parties are just as guilty.

Roadie said most of this better already. But just because I can't resist an open invitation to tell you why I hate Bush, here ya go (briefly):

(1) He has done more damage to our foreign relations than anyone else I can think of. He has ruined America's credibility, trustworthiness, and leadership role in the world in the eyes of many world leaders.

(2) The people he surrounds himself with are even worse than he is- I could talk for hours for why I hate Cheney, Rumsfeld, Fleischer (up until a few months ago), Wolfowitz, and the rest of the crew maybe even more than I hate W. Their greed & war mongering seems to guide policy way more than any of Bush's own personal opinions/ values.

(3) He is trying his best to institutionalize Christianity as a part of American government. That's both illegal and wrong.

(4) This is one of the biggest, but hard to describe---his general attitude is one of entitlement, contempt for the powerless, and ignorance of the reality that most of us live in. When I see him talk, I would swear that he is smirking at us the whole time. He doesn't seem to care very much about what happens to anyone outside of his crew. He smells very much like a crooked, smug, spoiled, condescending asshole.

(5) He is decimating reproductive rights in this country & across the world by slashing funding for family planning & working hard to outlaw even the most necessary procedures.

(6) He lies. He lies, lies, lies, lies.

(7) He & his cronies have done extreme damage to Americans' civil rights & rights to privacy. And, worse, he has used the excuse of 9/11 to explain why he's allowed to read my email, tap my phone line, and search my house without a warrant if I seem suspicious. And yet he says that Al-Qaida are the ones who hate freedom?

(8) He uses very poor grammar

(9) He unabashedly crows about his triumphs for Medicare and energy, when the legislation he pushed through on these issues destroys many advances the federal government has made in providing health care to the needy and using its power to protect all of our health. Instead, he has sold these fundamental rights to the highest (or in some cases, lowest) bidders

(10) He's an oil baron, and if that isn't the biggest possible conflict of interest with the role of presidency, I don't know what is.

Rarely have I despised someone so much, and rarely have I felt so unashamed of it. I truly believe he is ruining our country and the world on many levels.

One of my biggest issues with Bush has been his inability to perceive or present the complexities of the world as they are. The "you're with us or against us" mentaity (as evidenced by his recent add-campaign wherein the narration states "some people have been attacking the president for attacking the terrorists") where all is polarized just doesn't jive with me. To refer to people as "evil-doers" and "haters of freedom" is asinine at best. Bush acted as if the events of 9/11 occurred in a vacuum. He refuses to acknowledge the fact that these attacks were a response to our middle east policy and undying support of Israel, a country that absolutely has nukes that we gave them.
What I've found interesting from the beginning of the WMD scare is how petrified we are that small "rogue states" could come into these weapons when we have more of them stockpiled than any nation in history. And I don't buy that we need them for "defense" (an excuse always used by empires to excuse their excesses) and anyone else that has them is an imminent threat. Historically we are the only nation to use nukes to incinerate other human beings. So why all the finger pointing?
Also, one of the major justifications of the war was the deposition of a murderous dictator. However, to get at said murderous dictator we gave $500 million in aid to the dictator of Uzbekistan, who has been known to routinely boil people to death among other gruesome attrocities equal to Saddam's, in order to have a base just across the border. Smell hypocrisy anyone?
Sorry I got a bit off subject but most of the good ones have been taken already.

Shit, forgot one.
With the help of Mr. Bush and his cabinet, Halliburton, the company that the slimy James Bond villain Dick Cheney once headed, was given no bid contracts to rebuild Iraq. What does this mean? Well, a functioning capitalism is supposed to thrive on competition, but competition was nil here. The VP's old company was handed a monopoly. Conflict of interest? Absolutely. Especially since the evidence shows that Mr. Cheney continues to receive $$$ from the business.

1. first of all as been said he did not even win the majority vote. He lost the florida run-off and he is still in office.
2.The fact that his family helped him cheat during the election.
3.The fact he went to war with Iraq. I am anti-war, especially if it is for a pointless reason. Dont take it the wrong way getting saddam was a great thing, but we found him in a hole. And yet a lot of the citizens of Iraq are dead.
4.Bush is all about the money and that is not the way our president should be.

Come on in, the water's fine.

Will

This is my big one. The infringement of personal liberties under this administration reads at times like an Orwell novel. I'm amazed how much of the Bill of Rights has been thrown out, and yet no one seems to be able to stop it. It is disgusting, and using 9/11 to justify it is a disgrace to those who died.


Playing devil's advocate, I've never heard any sufficient proof that supply-side economics doesn't work. I've heard convincing arguments from people vastly more economically-studied than I both for and against, and I don't think it is fair to deem one argument or the other as unquestionably correct. Near as I can tell, economics operates on a timeframe too convoluded to comprehend... some argue that Clinton's first term economy was the result of Reaganomics, some argue that economic effects like this can be measured on a much shorter timeframe and that the recession of the last few years has been solely due to the tax cuts. Both could be accurate as far as I know. I do think that macroeconomic shifts on a nation's entire economy take longer to register than people tend to assume (as in... not within 6 or 9 months), and that in either case, there is no possible way to ever determine it because there are always factors (like 9/11 or the war) that shift an economy in such a way that could counteract, nullify, or boost the effects of the tax cut.

Apart from that though you certainly make the most cogent and studied argument I'd ever expect to see on a band's messageboard, and I agree with you.

Is it obvious that I'm a Libertarian?

Will

Are you ashamed?

Is it hard to be a Libertarian in Evanston?

No problem. I know it's easy to get worked up anyway about issues that you believe in. My whole point was to get more than answers like, "he's a cowboy", which you clearly always do. This is my way of listening to the demonstraters. I know a lot of you guys; I've built relationships and value your opinion and where you're coming from more than the people I see (some blindly) waving anti-Bush flags; and I want to hear what you have to say.
Thanks

This said, I haven't read past that post, and need to leave. So I do have more to say than this, but will save it for tomorrow. Also, I'm so tired, I stabbed myself with a syringe for the first time, luckily it had nothing in it, so I'm not glowing.

(Edited by foldsfan at 8:55 am on Dec. 16, 2003)

That's what David Bruce Banner thought!

No, that isn't what I meant at all. Attacking Bush's social policy and defending Republican economic policy in the same breath would seem contradictory, but it is in keeping with the core Libertarian ideal of as little government involvement as is possible in all things. I stuck that at the end because it was a "typically Libertarian" move to make.

Will

wait, what?

Unsurprising new twist:

Halliburton is now suspected of overcharging the Pentagon $61 million for gasoline (of all things) in Iraq, and tried to overcharge by $67 million for a cafeteria contract.

truthout

This is kind of long, but it's an excellent indicator of the disturbing level of secrecy employed by the Bush Regime.

http://www.floridatoday.com/!NEWSROOM/...N1216NELSON.htm

This is why Bush is ridiculous. When Clinton lied, no one died.

i thought that he was zapped by gamma radiation.........

Hmmm...reasons not to like Bush....

Revoked funding for global family planning under false claims that it supported abortion (meaning poor people loose money and access to birth control and condoms)

Healthy Forests Initiatives is an environmental catastrophe waiting to happen

Wants to pack every court with extreme right wing ideologues

Believes tax payer money should go to religious groups (Faith Based Initiative)

The tax cut was a joke and lead to increased sales and property taxes in hard-hit states

WMD's in Iraq? I have a bridge to sell you in Arizona.

The war on terrorism on Hussein? Huh? Where's Bin Laden? And what about North Korea?

Haliburton's no bid contract in Iraq (take our tax dollars, give them to Dick Cheney's company (he's still on a deferred payroll, give them million dollar contracts that they abuse by overcharging on, and then funnel that money back to Bush as campaign donations...how clever)

Going to war in Iraq with no justification

Lying about said justification

Banning certain stem cell lines that could prove invaluable to medical research

Blowing recording surpluses and turning them into record deficits, thus flushing future social security and medicare benefits down the toilet

Hmmm...the economy sucks...let's have a war!

Bush's pride in using the death penalty...how many people have been freed from death row as new evidence has surfaced? Over 100? I believe that's right.

I could go on and on and on all day like this. The point is that, beyond being an inept leader, a coward (we didn't see his ass in Vietnam thanks to daddy) and a hypocrite, Bush has lead our country down a path that has only seen record job losses (not since FDR have job losses been at such levels), obliteration of our surpluses (thanks Mr. Clinton), an unjustified war, environmental despoilment, tax cuts to fatten up the wealthy, greed, corruption (how's that Enron case going...how about those corruption cases in Walstreet that aren't being investigated except by the AG in New York?), ....it's utterly disgusting what this President has brought before us...and to call this "patriotism." Right. Bush is a pathetic leader because of his policies. I don't have to devolve into personal attacks to point out how inept he has been. He does it enough by speaking.

Jeremy, who will be voting for Wesley Clark in 2004
www.clark04.com

One thing is for certain...four more years of Bush will mean the end of Row v. Wade. I don't care what your position is on abortion but a fact is a fact. As long as women can get pregnant, there will be abortions, and whether they are legal or not, they will be provided. The question is, do we want doctors providing them, or shady persons setting up office in basements of abandoned buildings? I shudder to think of how devastating four more years of Bush could be. The next four years will be spent undoing the current damage.

"The damage is done..." hehe.

J

among other things he leans on the podium. hence he has not the strength to stand on his own two feet when he adresses the nation or congress. my grandparents roll in their graves. my grandfather was in ww2 and deserves better respect from our nations leader.